False Prophets

[Calvinator]

Matt 7:21-23 provides the proper context and it is very clear: fruit=works.

No, it does not. Have you ever heard the phrase "enjoying the fruits of your labor?" Labor = work and fruits = results. you will know them by their results. A bad tree that is producing bad fruit. Producing = works and fruit = results.

There is only two places, that I have found so far, that defines what fruit is. The fruit of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit works in the believers life and fruit is produced, the fruit of the Spirit. Works is not listed as a fruit.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

I would also point out that fruit is in truth and faith is a fruit.

[comitatus1]

Chris,

This will be my last post in this thread. However, before I check out of this thread for good I wanted to respond to the quote above. It is interesting indeed when there is a thread started about False Prophets and God leads a false prophet to the thread to emphasis the point to those here. I usually refrain from name calling and putting labels on people I only know through the internet but this instance calls for an exception to my rule. Comitatus1 AKA Chris clearly proves the point of false prophets and is a perfect example of what Jesus is talking about in Matt 7. I challenged him to exposit the Matthew 7 passage to clear up what exactly he was saying but instead keeps avoiding the issue and brings up false statements like the one above. He keeps pointing to works for some reason and makes every excuse to hold on to them. I will look at Matthew 7:21-23 to show the error above.

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Chris, you say that the context of this passage proves that the preceeding verses should be interpreted to mean works. I challenge you again to exposit Matthew 7:15-23 and show how his interpretation works with this context instead of just make claims and not backing them up.

The exposition is self-evident. The section of 7:15-23 is a unit, with the subject being false prophets. 15-20 tell us about how we will recognize them. 21-23 tell us the fate God has in store for them. God clearly judges these false prophets and finds them guilty. Only the ones who do the Father's Will will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. These false prophets do not even come close to this standard, instead being judged as 'workers of lawlessness'. Their behaviour, then, is what condemns them and reveals them to be not what they claim they are, true prophets, but false prophets.

Let's look at verse 21. Who could this be talking about? What type of people? The preceding verses were talking about false prophets so it is certainly possible this is still who Jesus is talking about here. "Not everyone who say Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven" False prophets will definitely claim to come in Jesus' name and claim to be teaching sound doctrine but they are clearly not saved. Only those that do the will of the Father will be saved. What is the will of the Father?

Joh 6:37-40 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

It seems pretty clear to me that there is nothing of works in this verse. It is quite simple really. It is simple belief in the true gospel of Jesus which can only truly come about as revelation from God. Chris how can you claim that this verse supports fruits=works in the preceding verses?

Verse 22. Look at this verse. What are the people in the verse claiming to have done. Works!!! They claim to Jesus saying, "did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works" It is clear this verse continues to show to problems with false prophets. They were claiming justification before God by their works!!! This is what all false prophets do when they rely on their works and point to works whereas the true gospel is always by Grace alone apart from works. It is so clear. Chris how can you claim that this verse supports fruits=works in the preceding verses?

Verse 23. Look at this verse. What is Jesus' judgment for these people? "'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness" Jesus sends them to hell!!! The false prophets never were regenerated, never were born again, never were saved. They relied on their works and taught others to rely on theirs. They were never known by God but thought they were doing His will. They were wrong and teaching a false gospel of works. Chris how can you claim that this verse supports fruits=works in the preceding verses?

Now given these three verses how does this context make fruit in the preceding verses mean works? It doesn't!!!

Well I'm checking out of this thread.

Forester07

The text says they are WORKERS of LAWLESSNESS, therefore your whole argument about them depending on GOOD WORKS is misdirected. Jesus makes a specific promise that we will be able to discern false prophets by their fruit, therefore, we will recognize that however great their wonders may be, we will recognize them as not being from God but as lawless. Going extra-contextual with a verse from John really doesn't help you since Jesus is talking almost exclusively about faith in John 6. In Matthew 5-7 He is speaking of the nature of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Chris

[comitatus1]

No, it does not. Have you ever heard the phrase "enjoying the fruits of your labor?" Labor = work and fruits = results. you will know them by their results. A bad tree that is producing bad fruit. Producing = works and fruit = results.

Is that in the Bible? In any case, you only reinforce my point. Whether you are judging works or the result of those works makes little difference. Ultimately you are still talking about works.

There is only two places, that I have found so far, that defines what fruit is. The fruit of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit works in the believers life and fruit is produced, the fruit of the Spirit. Works is not listed as a fruit.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

All those fruit of the Spirit are not works? You mean they are all nouns and not verbs? Obviously these are all things you DO...therefore they are works.

Chris

I would also point out that fruit is in truth and faith is a fruit.[/quote]

[comitatus1]

Yes, that is why when you SEE someone doing something unbiblical and yet profess faith in Christ you have reason to doubt the authenticity of their faith.

Luke 17:4 "And if he {your brother} sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."

Repentence, being something someone DOES when they ask forgiveness from a person they have wronged, is in fact good work and therefore is recognized as good fruit.

If they refuse to repent, however, that's a different story...

Chris

[comitatus1]

You make a good point here, and I will use your point to show you something else. Let's use your above wording. I will just change the sinful works.

"What if someone claimed to be a believer in Christ/God but was a murderer, adulterer, and liar.....would you still be satisfied they were saved by their confession of faith?

Please just answer briefly a yes or no.

Thank's
Nicholas

You didn't use my wording so I will decline to answer with a one word answer. If you used my wording you would have said:

Ok, let's say someone claimed to be a believer in Christ but was a murderer, adulterer, and liar...and refuse your rebuke, and insisted upon remaining an elder in your church...what would you conclude then?

According to MY WORDING, my answer would be No. I would not be satisfied they were saved by a confession of faith.

If, on the other hand, they sincerely repented of their sin then I would say Yes, they were saved by a confession of faith.

Of course, I am not omniscient, so I could still be wrong, but according to what the Bible teaches concerning repentance and restoration, I would be following what Jesus commands.

Chris

[comitatus1]

Wow! Awesome point! Excellent! so Chris let me ask you this... give me an example in the Bible where someone knew the most perfect theology and yet wasn't a believer???

1Ti 1:18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,
1Ti 1:19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,
1Ti 1:20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

I don't think the perfection of Paul's theology is up for debate.

Chris

[comitatus1]

Do you need signs then to believe?

John evidently felt so since he listed it as a specific reason he wrote a Gospel to prove Christ was the Son of God.

Isn't there a verse about how people wont believe even if they see many signs? it all depends on God opening their eyes not on what Christ did.

Yes there is. I don't see how that takes anything away from this verse, though.

He didn't have to do anything to prove He was Christ.. He just is. And what ya think that Christ could have not bore the right fruit?

You're right. He didn't have to prove anything. And yet He did. I think that's too big a thing to so dismissive about.

Again its not about fruit, or what you call good works.. but about the Truth. The knowledge one has of who Christ is and what He did. If you have that.. that is all you need to be saved, that is all you need to be assured of your salvation...

Yes, and if you have all that then you WILL bear that good fruit Jesus talks about in Matthew 7.

Also some verses to think upon:
Col 2:2, (NASB), that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself
Heb 3:14, (NASB), For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
the beginning of our assurance, sounds like the Gospel message itself.. the grace God has given. the ability to see and understand who Christ is. God doesn't give that gift to anyone else. Therefore all false prophets will be found out to be liers and a follower of a false gospel, thus not believing in the Truth even though they may seem to parrot the Truth, their lies and unbelief will be found out.. not by their works. For many false prophets can decieve you by their abundance of good works. What say you about that?

I will repeat what I said to someone else:

We have been given a specific promise by Christ that we will recognize those who come in His name who are false and we will recognize this because we will be able to discern that that are workers of lawlessness. Not TEACHERS of lawlessness but WORKERS of lawlessness. Words mean things and this is an important distinction.

Chris

[comitatus1]

I would conclude he is a sinner and must repent.

The premise is that they are a sinner and are actively refusing to repent.

This whole issue of works attesting to faith is very very subjective. I admit I do not have the answer. But we must also never forget that the bible does speak of righteouss people, a character righteousness. Not righteous in Christ per se'. Simeon and Anna were 2 of these people. I do not know what they did other than pray all day in the temple, but as they say "They were 'goodfellas". Judging ones faith by works is a very subjective area. One can error on both sides. I know many Godly people, but I will not conclude their relationship with God without knowing what they profess. Works of benevolence can be copied by unbelievers and are all the time. But as with Simeon and anna, continuous prayer to the Holy God cannot.

The premise is that these false prophets profess faith in Christ and claim to come in His name.

I am not talking about trying to figure out if Joe Schmo off the street is elect. I am talking about hypocrites whose actions do not match their stated beliefs.

Chris

[comitatus1]

Really does the Spirit enlighten you more than another? What does it tell you? I sure hope it tells you exactly what the Bible says.

I was referring to those decisions we make that are not specifically spelled out in the Bible. Things like what job to take, where to live, who to marry, etc. These things can be very important and we depend on the Spirit to guide us in them.

Wow! you must really doubt yourself and others a whole lot, 'cause let me tell ya something unfortunely if ya haven't realized yet.. believers sin. Oh MY! Yes I said it.. believers sin. And ya know what else? They sin every day... and ya know what else? They sin A LOT everyday!! We are no different in that area compared to an unbeliever.. but we have Christ's righteousness imputed to our accounts. SO WE CAN BE ASSURED OF OUR SALVATION!! Oh my! REally? WE dont have to doubt based upon our works?

I really don't feel the need to respond to this since I've covered this aspect of life many times in this thread already.

So tell me though whats the difference in your language between works demonstrating ones faith and works being the assurance of ones faith?

Well, assurance means one thing and demonstrating means another. So that's the difference.

If I were to ask how are you assured that this person is a believer? What would you say?! From what I hear you'd say by their works.. So you DO believe that assurance is based on works. And that my friend is wrong.

Assurance would be about one's own conviction of their faith, not one's conviction about someone else's faith, so I really can't answer your question.

I think Paul had the same mindset...
Rom 7:18, (NASB), For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
1 Cor 2:2, (NASB), For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
2 Cor 13:8, (NASB), For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth.
Rev 21:27, (NASB), and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Yes, I think Paul and I have the same mindset.

Just wanna point out that even with being a liar you cant enter Heaven.. the only way to is by Christ, Gods election.. faith.. nothing to do with works. So that porn person, that liar, that fornicator, that adulterer, all those sinful people.. well let me tell ya something ya might not know.. CHRIST DIED FOR SINNERS! Hmm yeah he sure did.. and not just the sins BEFORE their conversion, but after as well. SO no I dont judge someone to be a believer by the sin in their life.. but by their faith in God, seeing that they believe in CHrist and CHrist is in them.. is enough for me. I know that may be hard to understand.. I know it may be hard to accept and love a sinner.. but hey God did it! He loved us while we were still sinners and Christ died for us. But if we are in Christ and a new creation we are no longer sinners by HIs imputed righteousness. But if one doesn't believe in any of that... then I guess one does have to look to works as their sure foundation or others... what a shame...

So you think Matthew 18:15-20 is invalid?

Chris

[Brandan Kraft]

This thread is closed. IF anyone can give me a good reason why it should re-open, send me a PM. Thanks - Brandan