Debt Paid. Is it or isn't it?

[marcuslid]

I posted this on another site and I'm interested in what the people on this site have to say on the subject. Some of you may have seen this already.

Lets say person "B" was in the bank and the bank told him he owed 10 million dollars, person "B" has no way to pay this ever. Person "A" also in the bank hears this. Person "B" goes away, and then Person"A" goes to the bank manager and tells him or her that he will pay for person's "B: debt. The bank knows that Person "A" is good for it and the bank just wants their money. Now how much does person "B" owe the bank? Whether or not person "B" accepts that Person "A" paid his debt is not the debt paid off?

[Brandan Kraft]

No brainer - debt is paid off.

[marcuslid]

No brainer - debt is paid off.

Wow that was easy, hmmm wonder why this question stumped some on the other site

[Highlyfavored]

Wow that was easy, hmmm wonder why this question stumped some on the other site

Uhh... cause they're dumb?

[MCoving]

Cool example of the Lord's salvation and sovereignty. Kinda like a song I remember from my younger days.. I owed a debt I could not pay (dont remember all the words.. lol). And then like Jesus paid our debt, we had nothing to do with it we dont have to accept it.. its done, complete, finished! Final!!! We dont owe that debt anymore because Jesus took care of it for us. Makes sense.. say I owe 300 dollars to credit cards and my dad pays for it, Im free from owing that debt to the credit card company. Substitution... Jesus was our substitute, he stepped in and took our place.

Funny how people in arminian churches sing these songs and when ya think about it they singing the true Gospel message yet don't believe it.. like with Amazing Grace, or that debt song.. they just dont put two and two together.. much like Greg said maybe they are dumb?

[marcuslid]

Funny how people in arminian churches sing these songs and when ya think about it they singing the true Gospel message yet don't believe it.. like with Amazing Grace, or that debt song.. they just dont put two and two together.. much like Greg said maybe they are dumb?

very god point Mary, and I think I remember that song.

[wildboar]

Wow that was easy, hmmm wonder why this question stumped some on the other site

Have you ever dealt with banks? Maybe someone from the other site actually worked at a bank. Nothing runs that smoothly at a real bank.

Of course the analogy is intended to prove that all whom Christ died for ultimately receive eternal salvation. But the problem is that I could just as easily conclude from the analogy that the atonement of Christ is a complicated mess since that is what the banking system is. When we seek to learn for whom Christ died we need to start and end within the pages of God's revealed Word in Scripture rather than trying to work out some rationalistic system--that is the error of both Calvinism and Arminianism. Of course Calvin himself did not hold to the limited atonement theory but I'm speaking of the later theological system known as Calvinism. Even the Canons of Dordt try to emphasize the universality of the atonement. I don't believe they go far enough but they are far more Biblical than many modern Calvinists who are seeking merely to convince their Arminian brothers how limited Christ's atonement is. The Biblical view of the atonement is one in which Christ's death is not limited in any way but of infinite value and beyond our comprehension. How and why would God die for us? Why would we ever want to use the word "limited" in association with the atonement? It makes it sound like a limited warranty that really does nothing of value. And if I wanted to go to down the analogy route I could say that it creates a warranty that nobody is completely certain is of any benefit to them.

[lionovjudah]

Even the Canons of Dordt try to emphasize the universality of the atonement. I don't believe they go far enough but they are far more Biblical than many modern Calvinists who are seeking merely to convince their Arminian brothers how limited Christ's atonement is. The Biblical view of the atonement is one in which Christ's death is not limited in any way but of infinite value and beyond our comprehension. How and why would God die for us? Why would we ever want to use the word "limited" in association with the atonement? It makes it sound like a limited warranty that really does nothing of value. And if I wanted to go to down the analogy route I could say that it creates a warranty that nobody is completely certain is of any benefit to them.

Chuck, as I mentioned in the other thread, this universality is specifically related to the intrinsic value only, nothing else. I hope I am misunderstanding you here because you cannot claim any benefits for the reprobate. Can you?

[marcuslid]

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOO you said it again Mary. ANd I thought I would never see the phrase again from you!!!

AS far as Greggg being dumb, well has anything good come out of Minnesota?

I don't get it???
Sorry

[Gregs Wife]

has anything good come out of Minnesota?

[MCoving]

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOO you said it again Mary. ANd I thought I would never see the phrase again from you!!!

AS far as Greggg being dumb, well has anything good come out of Minnesota?

You are getting annoying.. who cares that I say that phrase?! geesh

[MCoving]

Mary, I have put a secret block on this forum that will only allow a reference to

"My arminian false gospel previous church that I used to attend that remain blind to the truth causing my former arminian friends in the arminian church I used to attend, to focus on works and are legalists becasue in my former arminian church I used to attend only looked at certain works, which causes them to remain blind arminians, and stay in the arminian church, and if they leave my former arminian church, they go to another armian false works gospel churchian arminian church"

647 times. You have reached your quota, therefore any further reference to the above will result in you having to go back to your: "My arminian false gospel previous church that I used to attend that remain blind to the truth causing my former arminian friends in the arminian church I used to attend, to focus on works and are legalists becasue in my former arminian church I used to attend only looked at certain works, which causes them to remain blind arminians, and stay in the arminian church, and if they leave my former arminian church, they go to another armian false works gospel churchian arminian church" and walk the aisle and say the sinners prayer..

You make no sense....

[Eileen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lionovjudah
Mary, I have put a secret block on this forum that will only allow a reference to

"My arminian false gospel previous church that I used to attend that remain blind to the truth causing my former arminian friends in the arminian church I used to attend, to focus on works and are legalists becasue in my former arminian church I used to attend only looked at certain works, which causes them to remain blind arminians, and stay in the arminian church, and if they leave my former arminian church, they go to another armian false works gospel churchian arminian church"

647 times. You have reached your quota, therefore any further reference to the above will result in you having to go back to your: "My arminian false gospel previous church that I used to attend that remain blind to the truth causing my former arminian friends in the arminian church I used to attend, to focus on works and are legalists becasue in my former arminian church I used to attend only looked at certain works, which causes them to remain blind arminians, and stay in the arminian church, and if they leave my former arminian church, they go to another armian false works gospel churchian arminian church" and walk the aisle and say the sinners prayer..

[Originally posted by Mary]
You make no sense....

He is being a mocker Mary and this is the definition of mocking:

To attack or treat with ridicule, contempt or derision, to ridicule by mimicry of action or speech.

It is the exact opposite of Joe’s signature, the fruit of the spirit, and is certainly never done in the spirit of kindness.

It is a good and glorious thing Mary to remember from where the Lord has brought you in His Truth. I know, from my own Arminian days, that the focus was always works, in the form of men’s commandments. Like, “I don’t smoke and I don’t chew and I don’t go with girls who do”. That was the pastor’s favorite. I worked with a woman who wants on her tombstone, “I never drank, smoked or cussed”, so much for Christ, the Spotless Lamb of God and His imputed righteousness, freely given to His elect. We call it GRACE! The debt is paid in FULL!

They spoke of grace often and my ears did hear grace but I, like you, don’t think the majority understood true grace at all, as with many that call themselves reformed. Works are exalted period and we know that grace and law don’t mix, not only in our justification but in our daily lives as well. Grace is all!

All that to say, I will rejoice with you that He has brought you out of from under the false gospel preaching, has given you eyes to see and ears to hear.

“But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and forever. Amen” 2 Pet 3:18

Eileen~

[marcuslid]

.

“But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and forever. Amen” 2 Pet 3:18

Eileen~

I like the really last part here, when we grow in grace abd knowledge, it has nothing to do with us, just more grace.

[The Hawker]

I like the really last part here, when we grow in grace abd knowledge, it has nothing to do with us, just more grace.

Spot on with that statement!!

Jesus paid the debt in full on the cross. We just have to enjoy it and be satisfied in it. When we love the Lord and walk in the Spirit, He GUIDES us into ALL truth and we obey Him. Praise the Name of Jesus forevermore! All our obediences are done in His power and NOT our own. This is the vital point right here.

Blessings to you ALWAYS,

Kevin.

[comitatus1]

He is being a mocker Mary and this is the definition of mocking:

To attack or treat with ridicule, contempt or derision, to ridicule by mimicry of action or speech.

It is the exact opposite of Joe’s signature, the fruit of the spirit, and is certainly never done in the spirit of kindness.

It is a good and glorious thing Mary to remember from where the Lord has brought you in His Truth. I know, from my own Arminian days, that the focus was always works, in the form of men’s commandments. Like, “I don’t smoke and I don’t chew and I don’t go with girls who do”. That was the pastor’s favorite. I worked with a woman who wants on her tombstone, “I never drank, smoked or cussed”, so much for Christ, the Spotless Lamb of God and His imputed righteousness, freely given to His elect. We call it GRACE! The debt is paid in FULL!

They spoke of grace often and my ears did hear grace but I, like you, don’t think the majority understood true grace at all, as with many that call themselves reformed. Works are exalted period and we know that grace and law don’t mix, not only in our justification but in our daily lives as well. Grace is all!

All that to say, I will rejoice with you that He has brought you out of from under the false gospel preaching, has given you eyes to see and ears to hear.

“But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and forever. Amen” 2 Pet 3:18

Eileen~

While I don't agree with the way LOJ said what he said, I fully agree with the sentiment. What good does it really do to continue to compare yourself to people who don't have a complete understanding of the Gospel message? Is God going to look at you one day and say:

"Well, you didn't do everything I wanted you to do, but at least you did a lot better than those Arminians!"

I don't think so. We will as stand alone before Him to give an account and we might as well get into that groove right now.

I think Paul said it best:

Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.
Php 3:16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

Chris

[Eileen]

While I don't agree with the way LOJ said what he said, I fully agree with the sentiment. What good does it really do to continue to compare yourself to people who don't have a complete understanding of the Gospel message? Is God going to look at you one day and say:

"Well, you didn't do everything I wanted you to do, but at least you did a lot better than those Arminians!"

I don't think so. We will as stand alone before Him to give an account and we might as well get into that groove right now.

I think Paul said it best:

Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.
Php 3:16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

Chris

Those are good scriptures Chris for sure and there are many ways we are called to be mature.

Personally, I don't believe it is done in comparison, but in thankfulness. Are we to not be thankful that we aren't believing a false gospel anymore as we once did? Seeing the error clearly most often makes the Truth of the Gospel brighter and the rejoicing greater.

Eileen~

[lionovjudah]

He is being a mocker Mary and this is the definition of mocking:

To attack or treat with ridicule, contempt or derision, to ridicule by mimicry of action or speech.

Eileen, it is actually sarcasm too Eileen. If you are going to accuse me of something, be right please. The bible is filled with it.

1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain2 a: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual

[Eileen]

Eileen, it is actually sarcasm too Eileen. If you are going to accuse me of something, be right please. The bible is filled with it.

1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain2 a: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual

Regardless of what you want to call it Joe, it isn't kind. You just stated above that your goal was to give pain.

Eileen~

[lionovjudah]

Regardless of what you want to call it Joe, it isn't kind. You just stated above that your goal was to give pain.

Eileen~

My point is l ike Comitus said, we are not to compare ourselves to others constantly as a witness for Christ. Let me remind you of the words of the pharisse. ;

KJV Luke 18:9-14
(9) And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
(10) Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
(11) The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.(arminian)
(12) I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.(I believe the true Gospel, not like my former arminian church)
(13) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
(14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


It is an example of FALSE HUMILITY, which is condemned in scripture. It is actually a form of self righteousnes which in words 'thanks God', but directs attention to themselves.