Debt Paid. Is it or isn't it?

[MCoving]

My point is l ike Comitus said, we are not to compare ourselves to others constantly as a witness for Christ. Let me remind you of the words of the pharisse. ;

KJV Luke 18:9-14
(9) And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
(10) Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
(11) The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.(arminian)
(12) I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.(I believe the true Gospel, not like my former arminian church)
(13) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
(14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


It is an example of FALSE HUMILITY, which is condemned in scripture. It is actually a form of self righteousnes which in words 'thanks God', but directs attention to themselves.

In no way was I like the Pharisee there Joe!!! I was not trying to be proud or exalt myself over anyone. People know the only difference between me and them is that Christ has decided to make Himself known to me, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with me. I was only stating the differences between the two views.. if you dont see a difference between the arminians Gospel and ours than I am sorry for you, all this saying that Im not humble or like the Pharisee, etc.. needs to stop. If you want to continue this please just private message me but it's unfruitful for these boards and growing in Christ. And you have no right to judge me in such a way, when you dont even know me.. you make judgments prematurely and ones that are false. You stir up controversy for the sake of it... instead of encourage your brethren. I have never really enjoyed you or Wildboars posts.. but at least to some degree I've stayed civil and been nice.. I dont post that you are a Pharisee to some degree, or that you are self righteous, or that you have a sense of false humility, etc. etc.

So please just drop this conversation.. its unfruitful. Thanks

[Eileen]

My point is l ike Comitus said, we are not to compare ourselves to others constantly as a witness for Christ. Let me remind you of the words of the pharisse. ;

KJV Luke 18:9-14
(9) And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
(10) Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
(11) The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.(arminian)
(12) I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.(I believe the true Gospel, not like my former arminian church)
(13) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
(14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


It is an example of FALSE HUMILITY, which is condemned in scripture. It is actually a form of self righteousnes which in words 'thanks God', but directs attention to themselves.

Amen Mary to your last post, we are thinking exactly alike and so I will post my response to Joe here and perhaps he will drop the subject.

And as I said Joe, there is a great deal of difference between comparing oneself with others, or exalting oneself (as is the case of the Pharisee, those who rely upon their own righteousness, i.e the free will arminian as related in the passage above) and being thankful that God has revealed to you the true Gospel of God’s free grace in Christ. Once the Gospel comes in power, the power unto salvation, we never forget from whence He has brought us, especially remembering the false religion He has delivered us from. There certainly is no boasting for the believer in the True Gospel and that is where we differ. I don’t see anyone here boasting of their OWN ability or their OWN righteousness. The boasting is ALL in Christ and what HE has done.

“That no flesh should glory in his presence, But of him are ye in Christ Jesus who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.” 1Cor 1: 29-31

I was just hoping that perhaps you might quit with the sarcasm, etc., I don’t see it as necessary or edifying in any way.

“Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers” Eph 4:29

Eileen~

[lionovjudah]

Before anyone here thinks I am trying knock Brandan off his "Mean, Harsh, and Arrogant, throne," by pointing out the ad nauseum repetition of Mary, let me state clearly that is not my attention. In all sincerity I personally like Mary. And I would do this for anyone who repeated the error of false humility.

I read this article, and find it perfect for this vein if thought:

The second great threat to humility is the less obvious one of insecurity. Insecurities about one's abilities, one's favor with others, or one's worth in the sight of God are like weeds that would choke out the sprout of humility. Often they work by inducing false humility, which leads us to broadcast our own deficiencies in the hope that someone will contradict us. Insecurity may lead to a low self-image, but as long as we are focused on ourselves we are far from humility. Our insecurities also drive our attempts to prove ourselves, to show that we are strong and have made ourselves useful to God and those around us. Yet all of this is not humility because it is about us, not God. We make the mistake of fixating on our own earthen vessels, either trying to make them appear more pleasing than they are or obsessing about their flaws. The cure for our insecurity is not to become more secure in ourselves, but more confident in God. Confidence in God is the core of Christian humility.


So for what it is worth, when I speak of the death of Christ. The first and foremost greatest event in all of eternity, I do not so much care as what others think, or what I think, but what God says the event is about.

[wildboar]

Chuck, as I mentioned in the other thread, this universality is specifically related to the intrinsic value only, nothing else. I hope I am misunderstanding you here because you cannot claim any benefits for the reprobate. Can you?

I don't believe that Dordt is entirely Biblical on this issue. However, I would say that Christ's death does not "benefit" the "reprobate." But it is not due to any defect in the sacrifice of Christ--it is because of unbelief. We have the choice of either going the rationalistic route of saying well if person a was not saved then obviously Christ didn't die for them but that's not the picture we are given in Scripture.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

I am aware of the common Calvinistic explanation of these verses but just don't believe they do justice to God's Word.

[wildboar]

As a side note for those interested in exploring the Biblical use of satire and sarcasm:
A Serrated Edge.

[lionovjudah]

In no way was I like the Pharisee there Joe!!! I was not trying to be proud or exalt myself over anyone. People know the only difference between me and them is that Christ has decided to make Himself known to me, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with me. I was only stating the differences between the two views.. if you dont see a difference between the arminians Gospel and ours than I am sorry for you, all this saying that Im not humble or like the Pharisee, etc.. needs to stop. If you want to continue this please just private message me but it's unfruitful for these boards and growing in Christ. And you have no right to judge me in such a way, when you dont even know me.. you make judgments prematurely and ones that are false. You stir up controversy for the sake of it... instead of encourage your brethren. I have never really enjoyed you or Wildboars posts.. but at least to some degree I've stayed civil and been nice.. I dont post that you are a Pharisee to some degree, or that you are self righteous, or that you have a sense of false humility, etc. etc.

So please just drop this conversation.. its unfruitful. Thanks

It is very fruitful Mary. Becasue i myself am guilty of false humility at times. So when I see it, I can easily recognize the error in others. I will attempt to respond to your points as well as i can.
The principal is very evident Mary. When we constantly feel the need to justify or vindicate ourselves against others, it is built on a foundation of false humility and self righteousness. It is an entitlement attitude that comes with a sophomoric understanding of the Doctrine of Election. Yet laced with the poison that if we openly confess our shortcomings enough, people will feel sorry and do everything they can to help us. This false helplesness and sadness is actually done to promote an attitude of "At least I am not like them". If you would only stop at what the Lord has graciously bestowed on you, you would bring much gladness to others. Yet you continue on with what you perceive as Him blinding your former arminian friends, reformed churchians, and whatever nonsensical term one can come up with. There is not one scripture that portrays this vein of thought Mary. Not one. To wander to and fro between pride and false humility is a terrible river to be on. In one breathe we say "Look at me", the next breathe "Dont look at me" where true humility says "Look alone to Jesus".

I need to ask, how much effort do you put into pointing to Christ with your former arminian friends? And how patient are you with them? Have you ever thought of the longsuffering of God with you? How many times we have, like the Israelites, forgotten His mercies and spit in His face, yet again He saved us. Have you also not wandered from the fold many many times? Have you not found yourself eating pig slop? One thing you and all must remember is that when we have to give account to what we have done with His grace, we cannot talk about others. It is personal.

This will be my last point on the subject with you Mary. Do what you will with it. My hope is you can see your error as well as I, and we both repent when we get the entitlement attitude as if we are better than others. And as John Bradord said,"But by the Grace of God, there go I"

[lionovjudah]

I don't believe that Dordt is entirely Biblical on this issue. However, I would say that Christ's death does not "benefit" the "reprobate." But it is not due to any defect in the sacrifice of Christ--it is because of unbelief. We have the choice of either going the rationalistic route of saying well if person a was not saved then obviously Christ didn't die for them but that's not the picture we are given in Scripture.

I am sure you are aware of Owen's scriptural treatment of this sentiment. So it may not do any good to repeat it. And he guards against rationalism quite well.

[MCoving]

Obviously my last thread was deleted for some reason.. I guess I pry did go off some at Joe but Im getting tired of him judging me, when he has no grounds, he is personally attacking my character and I haven't done anything to him. Me and Eileen talked about this yesterday as well, and it concerns her too.

I would just ask that he stop, and maybe whoever reads what he writes would address me personally. Because in NO WAY was I being proud when writing what I did. I care a lot about my friends in my old church, and I know I was in their shoes before.. and the only reason Im not is because of Christ nothing that I did.. I dont deserve to be called His child I just am. And no its not a false sense of humility that Im displaying.. im just speaking the truth from my heart.

So Joe could you please just stop? And I wish you would have written these things to me in private than attacked my character publicly. Hopefully, people realize its just one opinion and in now way in my last threads that I have written here that I was trying to be "better" than others. Im just trying to learn, maybe I talk alot.. maybe my threads possibly could have appeared that way.. but it was never my intention. Im just tired of people attacking my character publically....

[Brandan Kraft]

Closing thread...