Is God Responsible for Evil?

[Robert R. Higby]

That is not what Eileen was saying, that 'good' was merely physical good. She included the creation of Adam and Eve in the image of God as a part of 'goodness'. The compartmentalized distinction between 'physical' and 'spiritual' good or evil is a dualistic concept; there is some distinction in the ancient understanding because of the differences between various created entitities--but it is not elevated to the level of a theological disjuncture like in Greek or other pagan philosophy.

But we are still left with the question of, "Is proclivity to sin good?"

That is your question Charles, not ours. No one has said that proclivity to sin is good. Instead, we have stated that God calling all things in the shadow creation 'good' does not exclude the fact that 'bad' was also present within it. Adam had both the image of God (in our estimation, the capacity to know God and discern good and evil) and the proclivity to sin in his created being. It is just that his capacity to know good and evil did not translate into actual knowledge until the 'opening of eyes.' The same is true with every elect soul whom Adam represented in terms of before/after regeneration.

This view of the 'image of God' may go against SOME concepts of Total Depravity for sure, however, we reject such concepts. Total Depravity = Total Inability to know and pursue 'good' as distinguished from 'evil' until God regenerates or opens the eyes to such knowledge.

On the matter of good as 'perfect according to its created purpose', I once again refer to the King of Tyre in Ezek. 28--who was 'perfect' in the day God established him as king (though he was reprobate) until evil was manifested in him. He first supported and did that which was right and good in human government until his reprobate nature was manifested.

[marcuslid]

I just finish reading this in Pink's book; The Sovereignty of God and thought I'd share, since it fits with the topic on hand.

III. How is it possible for God to DECREE that men SHOULD commit certain sins, hold them RESPONSIBLE in the committal of them, and adjudge them GUILTY because they committed them?
Let us now consider the extreme case of Judas. We hold that it is clear from Scripture that God decreed from all eternity that Judas should betray the Lord Jesus. If anyone should challenge this statement we refer him to the prophecy of Zechariah, through whom God declared that His Son should be sold for "Thirty pieces of silver" (Zech. 11:12). As we have said in earlier pages, in prophecy God makes known what will be, and in making known what will be, He is but revealing to us what He has ordained shall be. That Judas was the one through whom the prophecy of Zechariah was fulfilled needs not to be argued. But now the question we have to face is, Was Judas a responsible agent in fulfilling this decree of God? We reply that he was. Responsibility attaches mainly to the motive and intention of the one committing the act. This is recognized on every hand. Human law distinguishes between a blow inflicted by accident (without evil design), and a blow delivered with ‘malice aforethought.’ Apply then this same principle to the case of Judas. What was the design of his heart when he bargained with the priests? Manifestly he had no conscious desire to fulfil any decree of God, though unknown to himself he was actually doing so. On the contrary, his intention was evil only, and therefore, though God had decreed and directed his act, nevertheless, his own evil intention rendered him justly guilty as he afterwards acknowledged himself—"I have betrayed innocent blood." It was the same with the Crucifixion of Christ. Scripture plainly declares that He was "delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23), and that though "the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ" yet, notwithstanding, it was but "for to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done" (Acts 4:26, 28); which verses teach very much more than a bare permission by God, declaring, as they do, that the Crucifixion and all its details had been decreed by God. Yet, nevertheless, it was by "wicked hands," not merely "human hands", that our Lord was "crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23). "Wicked" because the intention, of His crucifiers was only evil.
But it might be objected that, if God had decreed that Judas should betray Christ, and that the Jews and Gentiles should crucify Him, they could not do otherwise, and therefore, they were not responsible for their intentions. The answer is, God had decreed that they should perform the acts they did, but in the actual perpetration of these deeds they were justly guilty, because their own purposes in the doing of them was evil only. Let it be emphatically said that God does not produce the sinful dispositions of any of His creatures, though He does restrain and direct them to the accomplishing of His own purposes. Hence He is neither the Author nor the Approver of sin. This distinction was expressed thus by Augustine: "That men sin proceeds from themselves; that in sinning they perform this or that action, is from the power of God who divideth the darkness according to His pleasure." Thus it is written, "A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps" (Prov. 16:9). What we would here insist upon is, that God’s decrees are not the necessitating cause of the sins of men, but the fore-determined and prescribed boundings and directings of men’s sinful acts. In connection with the betrayal of Christ, God did not decree that He should be sold by one of His creatures and then take up a good man, instill an evil desire into his heart and thus force him to perform the terrible deed in order to execute His decree. No; not so do the Scriptures represent it. Instead, God decreed the act and selected the one who was to perform the act, but He did not make him evil in order that he should perform the deed; on the contrary, the betrayer was a "devil" at the time the Lord Jesus chose him as one of the twelve (John 6:70), and in the exercise and manifestation of his own devilry God simply directed his actions, actions which were perfectly agreeable to his own vile heart, and performed with the most wicked intentions. Thus it was with the Crucifixion. - A.W. Pink - THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD (GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY AND HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY)

[The Hawker]

I just finish reading this in Pink's book; The Sovereignty of God and thought I'd share, since it fits with the topic on hand.

III. How is it possible for God to DECREE that men SHOULD commit certain sins, hold them RESPONSIBLE in the committal of them, and adjudge them GUILTY because they committed them?
Let us now consider the extreme case of Judas. We hold that it is clear from Scripture that God decreed from all eternity that Judas should betray the Lord Jesus. If anyone should challenge this statement we refer him to the prophecy of Zechariah, through whom God declared that His Son should be sold for "Thirty pieces of silver" (Zech. 11:12). As we have said in earlier pages, in prophecy God makes known what will be, and in making known what will be, He is but revealing to us what He has ordained shall be. That Judas was the one through whom the prophecy of Zechariah was fulfilled needs not to be argued. But now the question we have to face is, Was Judas a responsible agent in fulfilling this decree of God? We reply that he was. Responsibility attaches mainly to the motive and intention of the one committing the act. This is recognized on every hand. Human law distinguishes between a blow inflicted by accident (without evil design), and a blow delivered with ‘malice aforethought.’ Apply then this same principle to the case of Judas. What was the design of his heart when he bargained with the priests? Manifestly he had no conscious desire to fulfil any decree of God, though unknown to himself he was actually doing so. On the contrary, his intention was evil only, and therefore, though God had decreed and directed his act, nevertheless, his own evil intention rendered him justly guilty as he afterwards acknowledged himself—"I have betrayed innocent blood." It was the same with the Crucifixion of Christ. Scripture plainly declares that He was "delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23), and that though "the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ" yet, notwithstanding, it was but "for to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done" (Acts 4:26, 28); which verses teach very much more than a bare permission by God, declaring, as they do, that the Crucifixion and all its details had been decreed by God. Yet, nevertheless, it was by "wicked hands," not merely "human hands", that our Lord was "crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23). "Wicked" because the intention, of His crucifiers was only evil.
But it might be objected that, if God had decreed that Judas should betray Christ, and that the Jews and Gentiles should crucify Him, they could not do otherwise, and therefore, they were not responsible for their intentions. The answer is, God had decreed that they should perform the acts they did, but in the actual perpetration of these deeds they were justly guilty, because their own purposes in the doing of them was evil only. Let it be emphatically said that God does not produce the sinful dispositions of any of His creatures, though He does restrain and direct them to the accomplishing of His own purposes. Hence He is neither the Author nor the Approver of sin. This distinction was expressed thus by Augustine: "That men sin proceeds from themselves; that in sinning they perform this or that action, is from the power of God who divideth the darkness according to His pleasure." Thus it is written, "A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps" (Prov. 16:9). What we would here insist upon is, that God’s decrees are not the necessitating cause of the sins of men, but the fore-determined and prescribed boundings and directings of men’s sinful acts. In connection with the betrayal of Christ, God did not decree that He should be sold by one of His creatures and then take up a good man, instill an evil desire into his heart and thus force him to perform the terrible deed in order to execute His decree. No; not so do the Scriptures represent it. Instead, God decreed the act and selected the one who was to perform the act, but He did not make him evil in order that he should perform the deed; on the contrary, the betrayer was a "devil" at the time the Lord Jesus chose him as one of the twelve (John 6:70), and in the exercise and manifestation of his own devilry God simply directed his actions, actions which were perfectly agreeable to his own vile heart, and performed with the most wicked intentions. Thus it was with the Crucifixion. - A.W. Pink - THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD (GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY AND HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY)

Thanks Marcus for sharing this with us. I have read this book once before, but forgot about this. This is a vital extract to help us make sense of Gods' Sovereignty, and to operate accordingly. I believe you put this post here exactly when I needed some answers. Thank you Lord!!!!!!

The Lords' Blessings to you, Marcus, ALWAYS,

Kevin.

[wildboar]

Robert Higby:

When God finished creating everything he said it was very good. He did not say it is good and evil. So regardless of what you may try to read into the text as far as God's judgment goes He says it was very good. And God's judgment is the one we should be most concerned about. We don't need to go down the road of well there must have been evil because of what follows. That conclusion is based upon a great number of presuppositions. If we stick with the text itself we will simply be left with the idea that it was all very good and that the fall is what brought evil into the world.

[Calvinator]

When God finished creating everything he said it was very good. He did not say it is good and evil. So regardless of what you may try to read into the text as far as God's judgment goes He says it was very good. And God's judgment is the one we should be most concerned about. We don't need to go down the road of well there must have been evil because of what follows. That conclusion is based upon a great number of presuppositions. If we stick with the text itself we will simply be left with the idea that it was all very good and that the fall is what brought evil into the world.

Did God purpose the Fall or not?

[Robert R. Higby]

If we stick with the text itself we will simply be left with the idea that it was all very good and that the fall is what brought evil into the world.

You mean the Augustinian view of the text.

I'm sorry, I don't buy the notion that the way one interprets the text is without the bias of tradition.

Those who believe in the physical presence of Christ as the correct interpretation of "this is my body" do so because of the tradition of interpretation started with Irenaeus.

Those who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the saints do so because of the tradition of interpretation started with Edward Irving. In spite of John MacArthur insisting it is straight from the Bible!

And, yes, those who believe that an Adam with a perfectly holy nature with no impulses of sin nonetheless rebelled against God 'just for the hell of it' do so because of the tradition of interpretation started with Augustine. The notion reminds me of proposing that one who has nothing but love for one's only son or daughter might decide to rise up and murder him or her with absolutely no motive to do so.

This thread will soon be closed unless some fresh arguments are introduced. Everything we are exchanging on presently is the same thing we have been through over and over in the past.

[The Hawker]

God is sovereign over all. As was said before, evil is used to bring Gods' purposes about, and to prune us of dead wood the Lord wants to get rid of (John 15). Any evil we receive at the hands of men will ultimately work together for the good of the elect (Romans 8:28). This is a hard saying because none of us likes evil, and I for one avoid things that I don't need to go through if I can help it. However in all things, we need God to strengthen us by His Spirit, so that whatever the Lord ordains, we will have the grace to walk through the valleys. We need to seek His face earnestly for these things, that we don't "cope" under our own human effort. Remembering that we walk through the valleys, and then come out of them at the other side. Amen!

[wildboar]

You mean the Augustinian view of the text.

Nope I don't. I know what I mean and I've explained it several times. The text, the text, the text without any adjectives or brackets. Just kick all the philosophers and theologians out of your head for a moment and pick up a Bible and read the text.

Did God purpose the Fall or not?

The fall is part of God's plan, but that is not the focus of the Genesis passage and we don't need to derive all kinds of other strange doctrines from it by rationalizing.

[Robert R. Higby]

Thread Closed.

[Whammer]

Thread Closed.

yeah, the good watr on th thredgot muddied, to foul for consumption