Election According To The Missouri Synod

[Saint Nicholas]

My comments will be in Green Letters.

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod:

Of the Election of Grace

(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)
[Adopted 19321
35. By the election of grace we mean this truth, that all those who by the grace of God alone, for Christ’s sake, through the means of grace, are brought to faith, are justified, sanctified, and preserved in faith here in time, that all these have already from eternity been endowed by God with faith, justification, sanctification, and preservation in faith, and this for the same reason, namely, by grace alone, for Christ’s sake, and by way of the means of grace. That this is the doctrine of the Holy Scripture is evident from Eph. 1:3-7; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14; Acts 13:48; Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Tim. 1:9; Matt. 24:22-24 (cp. Form. of Conc. Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraphs 5, 8, 23; M., p. 705).

You will notice in the above statement "through the means of grace" as a pre-requisite to Faith. As can be understood from many other statements and confessions within the Missouri Synod, this can only mean "sacraments". They are not denying Grace Alone, however this grace is not by mere imputation but rather infusion through cooperating with the elements of literal water (baptism) and literal bread (communion). Thus grace must in their scheme be channeled through earthly elements. The Holy Spirit is communicated through these elements. Mystical delusion similar to all forms of pagan mysticism and animism.

36. Accordingly we reject as an anti-Scriptural error the doctrine that not alone the grace of God and the merit of Christ are the cause of the election of grace, but that God has, in addition, found or regarded something good in us which prompted or caused Him to elect us, this being variously designated as "good works," "right conduct," "proper self-determination," "refraining from willful resistance," etc. Nor does Holy Scripture know of an election "by foreseen faith," "in view of faith," as though the faith of the elect were to be placed before their election; but according to Scripture the faith which the elect have in time belongs to the spiritual blessings with which God has endowed them by His eternal election. For Scripture teaches Acts 13:48: "And as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed." Our Lutheran Confession also testifies (Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraph 8; M. p. 705): "The eternal election of God however, not only foresees and foreknows the salvation of the elect, but is also, from the gracious will and pleasure of God in Christ Jesus, a cause which procures, works, helps, and promotes our salvation ahd what pertains thereto; and upon this our salvation is so founded that the gates of hell cannot prevail against it, Matt. 16:18, as is written John 10:28: ‘Neither shall any man pluck My sheep out of My hand’; and again, Acts 13:48: ‘And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.."

This is a good statement from what I can see, if only it was not confounded below.

37. But as earnestly as we maintain that there is an election of grace, or a predestination to salvation, so decidedly do we teach, on the other hand, that there is no election of wrath, or predestination to damnation.

The Missouri Synod only attests to single predestination.

Scripture plainly reveals the truth that the love of God for the world of lost sinners is universal, that is, that it embraces alt men without exception, that Christ has fully reconciled all men unto God, and that God earnestly desires to bring all men to faith, to preserve them therein, and thus to save them, as Scripture testifies, 1 Tim. 2:4: "God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." No man is lost because God has predestined him to eternal damnation. --Eternal election is a cause why the elect are brought to faith in time, Acts 13:48; but election is not a cause why men remain unbelievers when they hear the Word of God. The reason assigned by Scripture for this sad fact is that these men judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life, putting the Word of God from them and obstinately resisting the Holy Ghost, whose earnest will it is to bring also them to repentance and faith by means of the Word, Act 13:46; 7:51; Matt. 23:37.

So there you have it! God loves ALL men without exception. Christ reconciled ALL men unto God!. God earnestly desires to bring ALL men to faith and thus save them! No man is lost because God predestined him to eternal damnation! To sum it up, this form of soteriology disconnects Election from the Cross. The death of Christ was for all men without exception, while election was for the elect only. I believe the goal and aim of Election and the Cross can never be separated. In their view, Christ died for all men and made them worthy. The only reason they go to hell is because they overpowered the Holy Spirit and rejected the Gospel. A Gospel that was for them also. Another way of understanding this is that God Loves, died and expiated ALL sins for ALL men without exception. However God elected a few and exhibited irresistible grace on their behalf, while the others were still given resistible grace.

38.To be sure, it is necessary to observe the Scriptural distinction between the election of grace and the universal will of grace.

Now you will notice they claim a SCRIPTURAL distinction between the election of grace and the universal will of grace. That is preposterous!

This universal gracious will of God embraces all men; the election of grace, however, does not embrace all, but only a definite number, whom "God hath from the beginning chosen to salvation," 2 Thess. 2:13, the "remnant," the "seed" which "the Lord left," Rom. 9:27- 29, the "election," Rom. 11:7; and while the universal will of grace is frustrated in the case of most men, Matt. 22:14; Luke 7:30, the election of grace attains its end with all whom it embraces, Rom. 8:28-30. Scripture, however, while distinguishing between the universal will of grace and the election of grace does not place the two in opposition to each other. On the contrary, it teaches that the grace dealing with those who are lost is altogether earnest and fully efficacious for conversion. Blind reason indeed declares these two truths to be contradictory; but we impose silence on our reason. The seeming disharmony will disappear in the light of heaven, 1 Cor. 13:12.

The above teaches that the universal will of grace is altogether earnest and fully efficacious for conversion. My question is this. If this grace is earnest and fully efficacious,how can men resist? These Missouri Synod Lutherans teach the Augustinian view of single predestination. Also you will notice they say blind reason declares these two truth to be contradictory, but we impose silence on our reason. You see my friends, they must impose silence on their logic and reasoning. Not because it is blind reason, but rather the scriptures absolutely teach double predestination in which they have been made by God to become blind to it.

39. Furthermore, by election of grace, Scripture does not mean that one part of God’s counsel of salvation according to which He will receive into heaven those who persevere in faith unto the end, but, on the contrary, Scripture means this, that God, before the foundation of the world, from pure grace, because of the redemption of Christ, has chosen for His own a definite number of persons out of the corrupt mass and has determined to bring them through Word and Sacrament, to faith and salvation.

There's that sacramental stuff popping up again.

40. Christians can and should be assured of their eternal election. Agreed This is evident from the fact that Scripture addresses them as the chosen ones and comforts them with their election, Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13. This assurance of one’s personal election, however, springs only from faith in the Gospel, from the assurance that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Agreed For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; on the contrary, through the life, suffering, and death of His Son He fully reconciled the whole world of sinners unto Himself. Faith in this truth leaves no room for the fear that God might still harbor thoughts of wrath and damnation concerning us. Scripture inculcates that in Rom. 8:32, 33: "He that spared not His own Son, but gave Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth." Luther’s pastoral advice is therefore in accord with Scripture: "Gaze upon the wounds of Christ and the blood shed for you; there predestination will shine forth." (St. Louis ed., II, 181; on Gen. 26:9) That the Christian obtains the personal assurance of his eternal election in this way is taught also by our Lutheran Confessions (Formula of Concord, Triglot, p. 1071, Paragraph 26, M. 709): "Of this we should not judge according to our reason nor according to the Law or from any external appearance. Neither should we attempt to investigate the secret, concealed abyss of divine predestination, but should give heed to the revealed will of God. For He has made known unto us the mystery of His will and made it manifest through Christ that it might be preached, Eph. 1:9ff.; 2 Tim. 1:9f." -- In order to insure the proper method of viewing eternal election and the Christian’s assurance of it, the Lutheran Confessions set forth at length the principle that election is not to be considered "in a bare manner (nude), as though God only held a muster, thus: ‘This one shall be saved, that one shall be damned" (Formula of Concord, Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraph 9; M., p. 706); but "the Scriptures teach this doctrine in no other way than to direct us thereby to the Word, Eph. 1:13; 1 Cor. 1:7; exhort to repentance, 2 Tim. 3:16; urge to godliness, Eph. 1:14; John 15:3; strengthen faith and assure us of our salvation, Eph. 1:13; John 10:27f.; 2 Thess. 2:13f." (Formula of Concord, Triglot, p. 1067, Paragraph 12; M., p. 707). -- To sum up, just as God in time draws the Christian unto Himself through the Gospel, so He has already in His eternal election endowed them with "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth," 2 Thess. 2:13. Therefore: If, by the grace of God, you believe in the Gospel of the forgiveness of your sins for Christ’s sake, you are to be certain that you also belong to the number of God’s elect, even as Scripture, 2 Thess. 2:13, addresses the believing Thessalonians as the chosen of God and gives thanks to God for their election.

In conclusion, judge for yourselves. This is Augustian nonsense! Augustine never taught "double predestination" as most reformed theologians claim. There is a thread and post on this somewhere in the archives. Search it out, I posted it. The Lutherans are very similar to their mother, Rome! They have ecumenical unity with her. And claim she is part of the body of Christ.

Nicholas

[Calvinator]

If Catholicism were non-filtered Camels, then Lutheranism would be a filtered Camel.

[wildboar]

My comments will be in Green Letters.

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod:

Of the Election of Grace

(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)
[Adopted 19321
35. By the election of grace we mean this truth, that all those who by the grace of God alone, for Christ’s sake, through the means of grace, are brought to faith, are justified, sanctified, and preserved in faith here in time, that all these have already from eternity been endowed by God with faith, justification, sanctification, and preservation in faith, and this for the same reason, namely, by grace alone, for Christ’s sake, and by way of the means of grace. That this is the doctrine of the Holy Scripture is evident from Eph. 1:3-7; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14; Acts 13:48; Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Tim. 1:9; Matt. 24:22-24 (cp. Form. of Conc. Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraphs 5, 8, 23; M., p. 705).

You will notice in the above statement "through the means of grace" as a pre-requisite to Faith. As can be understood from many other statements and confessions within the Missouri Synod, this can only mean "sacraments". They are not denying Grace Alone, however this grace is not by mere imputation but rather infusion through cooperating with the elements of literal water (baptism) and literal bread (communion). Thus grace must in their scheme be channeled through earthly elements. The Holy Spirit is communicated through these elements. Mystical delusion similar to all forms of pagan mysticism and animism.

This is false. First of all, the means of grace includes the sacraments but is not limited to the sacraments. If you were to read on in the very same document you are quoting from you would find the means of grace defined. The means of grace include both the Word of the Gospel and the sacraments. As the document itself says:

21. Although God is present and operates everywhere throughout all creation and the whole earth is therefore full of the temporal bounties and blessings of God, Col. 1:17; Acts 17:28; 14:17, still we hold with Scripture that God offers and communicates to men the spiritual blessings purchased by Christ, namely, the forgiveness of sins and the treasures and gifts connected therewith, only through the external means of grace ordained by Him. These means of grace are the Word of the Gospel, in every form in which it is brought to man, and the Sacraments of Holy Baptism and of the Lord's Supper. The Word of the gospel promises and applies the grace of God, works faith and thus regenerates man, and gives the Holy Ghost, Acts 20:24; Rom. 10:17; 1 Pet. 1:23; Gal. 3:2. Baptism, too, is applied for the remission of sins and is therefore a washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:38; 22:16; Titus 3:5. Likewise the object of the Lord's Supper, that is, of the ministration of the body and blood of Christ, is none other than the communication and sealing of the forgiveness of sins, as the words declare: "Given for you," and: "Shed for you for the remission of sins," Luke 22:19, 20; Matt. 26:28, and "This cup is the New Testament in My blood," 1 Cor. 11:23; Jer. 31:31-34 ("New Covenant").
22. Since it is only through the external means ordained by Him that God has promised to communicate the grace and salvation purchased by Christ, the Christian Church must not remain at home with the means of grace entrusted to it, but go into the whole world with the preaching of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments, Matt. 28:19, 20; Mark 16:15, 16. For the same reason also the churches at home should never forget that there is no other way of winning souls for the Church and keeping them with it than the faithful and diligent use of the divinely ordained means of grace. Whatever activities do not either directly apply the Word of God or subserve such application we condemn as "new methods," unchurchly activities, which do not build, but harm the Church.
23. We reject as a dangerous error the doctrine, which disrupted the Church of the Reformation, that the grace and the Spirit of God are communicated not through the external means ordained by Him, but by an immediate operation of grace. This erroneous doctrine bases the forgiveness of sins, or justification, upon a fictitious "infused grace," that is, upon a quality of man, and thus again establishes the work-doctrine of the papists.

Grace is never said to be infused or any other such thing. Grace is imputed to us through the means of faith which is a gift of God. God does work faith in a person through the Word and sacraments. It is not a matter of cooperation between God and man. God does it all. I think we need to be very careful and do a good deal of research before we start accusing people of pagan mysticism and animism. Your premises are false to start with and your conclusion is not substantiated by the premises.

Scripture plainly reveals the truth that the love of God for the world of lost sinners is universal, that is, that it embraces alt men without exception, that Christ has fully reconciled all men unto God, and that God earnestly desires to bring all men to faith, to preserve them therein, and thus to save them, as Scripture testifies, 1 Tim. 2:4: "God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." No man is lost because God has predestined him to eternal damnation. --Eternal election is a cause why the elect are brought to faith in time, Acts 13:48; but election is not a cause why men remain unbelievers when they hear the Word of God. The reason assigned by Scripture for this sad fact is that these men judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life, putting the Word of God from them and obstinately resisting the Holy Ghost, whose earnest will it is to bring also them to repentance and faith by means of the Word, Act 13:46; 7:51; Matt. 23:37.

In their view, Christ died for all men and made them worthy.

This is false. Christ's death does not make us worthy. Lutherans do not teach infusionism.

There's that sacramental stuff popping up again.

The Scriptures attribute the same power to the Sacraments as they do to the Word. Why does that offend you? I've already posted elsewhere the passage which speak of the preaching of the Gospel for the forgiveness of sins, the administration of baptism for the remission of sins, and the sacrament of Holy Communion for the remission of sins. I would encourage you to reread your post, including all the things that I haven't had the time to comment on. Read the quotations from the Lutheran document and read your reply. Who is the one that is basing his position on Scripture? Where are the references to Scripture to be found? Is it better to just believe what Scripture says or to argue with it?

[QUOTE=Nicholas]The Lutherans are very similar to their mother, Rome! They have ecumenical unity with her. QUOTE]

Where are you getting this stuff from? This is sad. The LCMS is not in ecumenical relations with the Roman Catholic church. The LCMS is not even in communion with the WELS.

__________________
" Unless the Lord builds the house, They labor in vain who build it....." Psalm 127:1

I agree with you here.

[Saint Nicholas]

Qoute WB: "Where are you getting this stuff from? This is sad. The LCMS is not in ecumenical relations with the Roman Catholic church. The LCMS is not even in communion with the WELS."


Well Charles you better do you homework on your Missouri Synod. Indeed they are in fellowship with the World Council of Churches. See Below a partial listing of churches. Although technically they may not be on the membership roll, they still have solidarity with them. But of course you will try and deny this no matter how much evidence I bring forth. See the link Below

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/ecumenic...ash=4fab16edae

However Charles......What about election? I do think this is the topic

Nicholas

[Saint Nicholas]

WB qoute:" This is false. Christ's death does not make us worthy. "

Charles try to understand what they are saying below.

"The reason assigned by Scripture for this sad fact is that these men judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life, putting the Word of God from them and obstinately resisting the Holy Ghost, whose earnest will it is to bring also them to repentance and faith by means of the Word, Act 13:46; 7:51; Matt. 23:37."

Well Charles...whether you want to agree or disagree with their statement that is up to you. However the logical inference of the above statement is quite clear to me at least. In reverse it can read "these men judged themselves worthy of evelasting life, by accepting the Word of God and not resisting the Holy Ghost. Whose ernest will it is to bring them to repentance and faith by the means of the Word".

Nicholas

[wildboar]

If Catholicism were non-filtered Camels, then Lutheranism would be a filtered Camel.

What purpose does the analogy serve?

Well Charles you better do you homework on your Missouri Synod. Indeed they are in fellowship with the World Council of Churches. See Below a partial listing of churches. Although technically they may not be on the membership roll, they still have solidarity with them.

The Executive Director of the LCMS attends the WCC as an observer. There is no ecumenical relations with them. This absurd. It would be like saying that because you are talking to me that makes you a Lutheran and therefore in fellowship with the WCC. I suppose P-net must also be in fellowship with sellers of pornography since both use the internet. Your conclusions just simply don't follow the information.

However the logical inference of the above statement is quite clear to me at least. In reverse it can read "these men judged themselves worthy of evelasting life, by accepting the Word of God and not resisting the Holy Ghost. Whose ernest will it is to bring them to repentance and faith by the means of the Word".

But it just doesn't say that. You're making it up and there is no reason to draw such a conclusion.

However Charles......What about election? I do think this is the topic

I think the LCMS has proved their position from Scripture quite well from what you have already posted. I have not seen you present any Scriptural evidence to the contrary. You just keep claiming it is illogical and you don't like it.

[Robert R. Higby]

I find it interesting that the Federal Vision proponents in the Reformed camp are using the same election arguments as traditional post-Luther Lutheranism!

1. One can be 'elect' in time and not in eternity; i.e., enter the community of elect in time and still be damned in eternity.

2. One can never have assurance of final salvation in this life. I have never talked with a Lutheran pastor or 'lay person' (where the heck did that stupid expression come from?) who didn't deny the perseverence of the saints as a propositional doctrine.

3. The atonement is universal and consists of OBJECTIVE justification; in order to have SUBJECTIVE justification one must experience faith OR water baptism.

4. Those who have experienced faith or water baptism can turn from that faith or baptism and still go to hell.

[Calvinator]

What purpose does the analogy serve?

All things have a purpose.

I think that this is the second time I have implied that That Lutheranism is a lighter form of Catholicism.

[Highlyfavored]

All things have a purpose.

I think that this is the second time I have implied that That Lutheranism is a lighter form of Catholicism.

I would agree on both points.

[wildboar]

Lutherans are still the only ones arguing from Scripture on this thread without me really having to post anything.

[Robert R. Higby]

Here is a a link to a typical Lutheran perspective on this. This teaching is exactly what I have heard on Lutheran radio here at St. Louis througout the last 21 years, which represents the positions taught at Concordia seminary and the LCMS. The presentation on this one does not vary from teacher to teacher; the same verbage is used no matter who is representing it--the Lutherans have certainly got their story together and they all stick with the same one!

http://threehierarchies.blogspot.com...inism-and.html

[Whammer]

Lutherans are still the only ones arguing from Scripture on this thread without me really having to post anything.

You can call "lutheranism" solid ground or Christ's own words all you want, in the end it wont matter, it is still just sand. Matt. 7:24-27.
You hold the same contradictions to be truth that Bob put in his last post, and you have repeatedly made that clear.............sad (maybe so and maybe no.......I dont know yet)

[Highlyfavored]

Lutherans are still the only ones arguing from Scripture on this thread without me really having to post anything.

Well, I don't think I would agree on this point, but I do like this song by Luther: http://www.predestinarian.net/trinity.php?id=81

[Whammer]

Well, I don't think I would agree on this point, but I do like this song by Luther: http://www.predestinarian.net/trinity.php?id=81

I like this song too

[Saint Nicholas]

Lutherans are still the only ones arguing from Scripture on this thread without me really having to post anything.

Charles,...we have responded to this ridiculous argument of yours before, many times before.

I could site many passages of scripture to support my understanding of doctrine, just like all other professed christians do. As I and others have done in other posts. But that is not your real problem as I percieve. You just use that as an excuse. Your real problem may be, is that we disagree with you and YOUR church.

Do remember "beloved 57" ? If anyone sited more scripture to defend his position, it was him. And you accused him of just stringing together a bunch of verses from a concordance. Whether I agreed or disagreed with Darryl, I respected him.

You continue to always change the context of arguments to avoid the real salient point of a disagreement.


You believe that Roman Catholics with their idols, clergy, sacraments, are part of the body of Christ. That alone shows some of us who believe the Gospel that your belief of the true Gospel is suspect. You defend them only because the Lutherans are so much like them. You are united with them in spirit. I could site numerous beliefs where you and the Papist agree. Points of agreement that I deem from scripture to be blasphemous and repugnent to the Gospel.

I could say more,
Nicholas

[Saint Nicholas]

To Charles (wildboar).

Charles, I wanted to take this time to apologize for the harsh overtones of my previous post to you. Although I am convinced you and I are at odds with one another on many issues and doctrines that pertain to all aspects and teachings within christianity, I did not intend it to be harsh.

When Christ saved my soul and revealed the Gospel to me, my life was completly changed. Along with that, he delivered me from the darkest most diabolical form of cult Christianity ie; The Roman Catholic institution.

To me, anyone who even dares to lend credence to this cult and to justify her as part of the Body of Christ, has now become my enemy for the Gospel's sake.

In my mind there can NEVER be a justification for Rome. I believe her to be the very core and center of anti-Christian power.

There is no more to be said, other than for you to have a nice fathers day.

For the cause of Christ and his people,
Nicholas

[wildboar]

You are united with them in spirit. I could site numerous beliefs where you and the Papist agree. Points of agreement that I deem from scripture to be blasphemous and repugnent to the Gospel.

So why not do it, and do it honestly? I am not being at all sarcastic but completely serious when I say that when you make such claims it is similar to me watching someone do incredible gymnastics and then turning to my wife and joking, I could do that I just don't want to.

I would even go so far as to state that your method of theological argumentation is similar to some of the particularly poor examples of Roman Catholic theologians during the time of the Reformation (It is blasphemous because I say so...).

Lutherans had the sense to not throw the baby out with the bathwater (both literally and otherwise). When it comes to worship, Lutherans who practice the historic liturgy have a similarity to pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic liturgy. Lutheran have purged out the unbiblical elements and followed the liturgy passed down in the church and practiced in similar ways at the time of the Apostles. If you have legitimate problems with the Lutheran liturgy and things within it that you believe to be unbiblical I would truly love to discuss them (again so there is no misunderstanding I am not being sarcastic.).

Theologically there is a great gulf between Lutherans and Roman Catholics on issues such as justification, the eucharist, etc. Joe Baptist or Joe Wesleyan or Joe Reformed might be a former Roman Catholic and walk into a Lutheran church and conclude that it is just catholic-light but this would show superficial and poor judgment. Those things that are similar are similar because they are edifying and Biblical. I challenge anyone for instance to come up with a reason why I shouldn't confess my sins to God, call upon God, call upon Christ for mercy, bless God, recognize Christ as the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, chant a Psalm, hear an Old Testament reading, an Epistle reading, a Gospel reading, a sermon, partake of the Lord's Supper, sing Thanksgiving to God, etc.
And so the Wesleyan or the Baptist walks in and concludes that these poor people in this church are just closet Roman Catholics when in fact theologically the Wesleyan stands much closer to Roman Catholics on issues such as justification and sanctification. And on and on it goes. People see something and automatically revolt and say "isn't that what the Roman Catholics do" without looking at substance.

You believe that Roman Catholics with their idols, clergy, sacraments, are part of the body of Christ. That alone shows some of us who believe the Gospel that your belief of the true Gospel is suspect.

And here we go with these "Outside the Camp"-like statements.

[quote=Nicholas]I could site many passages of scripture to support my understanding of doctrine, just like all other professed christians do. QUOTE]

Go for it!

But that is not your real problem as I percieve. You just use that as an excuse. Your real problem may be, is that we disagree with you and YOUR church.

Nope, you are confused. I believe what my church teaches on this issue because it is Biblical. As Christians we have a Biblical obligation to think the best of one another. So, you have a Biblical obligation to believe that I am being honest with you and declaring my motivations to you and you have no reason to think otherwise.

You continue to always change the context of arguments to avoid the real salient point of a disagreement.

What do you mean? Please provide an example. Honestly, I don't know exactly what you are saying.

1. One can be 'elect' in time and not in eternity; i.e., enter the community of elect in time and still be damned in eternity.

We have argued about this before and I think we were both in agreement that Scripture does use the term in this way. And your argument always seems to be that we should not use the term in this way and I have yet to find any reason why. If our goal is to abandon "traditionalism" and develop a more Biblical faith then it seems you are headed in the wrong direction. But even stranger is the fact that Lutherans generally don't speak of election in this way but ordinarily use it in the way the article quoted does--speaking of those who teach (as you do) primarily of eternal election:

Furthermore, by election of grace, Scripture does not mean that one part of God’s counsel of salvation according to which He will receive into heaven those who persevere in faith unto the end, but, on the contrary, Scripture means this, that God, before the foundation of the world, from pure grace, because of the redemption of Christ, has chosen for His own a definite number of persons out of the corrupt mass and has determined to bring them through Word and Sacrament, to faith and salvation.

2. One can never have assurance of final salvation in this life. I have never talked with a Lutheran pastor or 'lay person' (where the heck did that stupid expression come from?) who didn't deny the perseverence of the saints as a propositional doctrine.

Lutherans and the FV in very different ways do teach that a person can have assurance of salvation. Lutherans ground this belief entirely in the work of Christ and points us to the various ways in which God has proven that we are His child in His Word and Sacraments. The FV tends to view baptism in a more social way and claims that if you don't backslide you can be certain of your salvation if you are baptized. The FV is also primarily a group reacting to groups within the HNRC and PCA that teach people to doubt their assurance (if you listen to the 2002 tapes they are primarily addressing those who teach that you cannot know you are a Christian unless you have some miraculous conversion experience.)

3. The atonement is universal and consists of OBJECTIVE justification; in order to have SUBJECTIVE justification one must experience faith OR water baptism.

This is very misleading since there are many in the FV who hold to a limited atonement. Lutherans, unlike the FV, teach that faith is given at baptism. Faith is of course absolutely necessary for subjective justification, due to the very nature of what is being spoken of.

4. Those who have experienced faith or water baptism can turn from that faith or baptism and still go to hell.

And this is Biblical.

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

[Saint Nicholas]

So why not do it, and do it honestly? I am not being at all sarcastic but completely serious when I say that when you make such claims it is similar to me watching someone do incredible gymnastics and then turning to my wife and joking, I could do that I just don't want to.

You make claims also Charles. We all do.

I would even go so far as to state that your method of theological argumentation is similar to some of the particularly poor examples of Roman Catholic theologians during the time of the Reformation (It is blasphemous because I say so...).

Now that's a bold claim! Where have I ever said that something is blasphemous because I say so?..what do you think Charles, I'm not infallable like the Pope. Have I attempted to burn you at the stake?

Lutherans had the sense to not throw the baby out with the bathwater (both literally and otherwise). When it comes to worship, Lutherans who practice the historic liturgy have a similarity to pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic liturgy.

I agree you have a similarity, however can you show me from scripture where and how this liturgy was performed by robed clergymen. Show me from the scriptures!

Lutheran have purged out the unbiblical elements and followed the liturgy passed down in the church and practiced in similar ways at the time of the Apostles. If you have legitimate problems with the Lutheran liturgy and things within it that you believe to be unbiblical I would truly love to discuss them (again so there is no misunderstanding I am not being sarcastic.).

Can you show me from scripture where this liturgy was practiced and taught by the Apostles? Can you site one example where any of the apostles put on their clerical robes?

Theologically there is a great gulf between Lutherans and Roman Catholics on issues such as justification, the eucharist, etc. Joe Baptist or Joe Wesleyan or Joe Reformed might be a former Roman Catholic and walk into a Lutheran church and conclude that it is just catholic-light but this would show superficial and poor judgment.

I agree that it would be poor judgement just to say that something is wrong because it is catholic-like. However it is not poor judgment if those similarities are anti-gospel, along with being unscriptural traditions.

Those things that are similar are similar because they are edifying and Biblical.

Please be more specific. What things?

I challenge anyone for instance to come up with a reason why I shouldn't confess my sins to God, call upon God, call upon Christ for mercy, bless God, recognize Christ as the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, chant a Psalm, hear an Old Testament reading, an Epistle reading, a Gospel reading, a sermon, partake of the Lord's Supper, sing Thanksgiving to God, etc.

Charles who's telling you to not do these thing? I confess my sins to God Alone. Not to a clergyman, minister, or priest. I call upon God also through Christ my only mediator. Remember Charles "there is no salvation outside of Christ" I bless God and recognize Christ as the lamb of God who takes away the sins of his elect people throughout the world. I read Psalms , don't care for chanting. I read and hear the scriptures. I'll listen to an occasional sermon. Charles would you like to hear some of my sermons over the past 26 years? My wife and I partake of the Lord's supper everytime we sit together for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and thank Him for offering Himself for us. We should always sing in our hearts to God.

And so the Wesleyan or the Baptist walks in and concludes that these poor people in this church are just closet Roman Catholics when in fact theologically the Wesleyan stands much closer to Roman Catholics on issues such as justification and sanctification. And on and on it goes. People see something and automatically revolt and say "isn't that what the Roman Catholics do" without looking at substance.

By the way Charles, what does all this have to do with the original topic of this thread!! Now please share with us your Lutheran (Barthian) views on Election as taught by the Missouri Synod.

[wildboar]

Now that's a bold claim! Where have I ever said that something is blasphemous because I say so?..

You do it all the time. You claim that something is blasphemous without giving Biblical proof and many times without even being specific about what is blasphemous.

You are united with them in spirit. I could site numerous beliefs where you and the Papist agree. Points of agreement that I deem from scripture to be blasphemous and repugnent to the Gospel.

This is nothing but name-calling and slander since you have not provided any particulars.

I agree you have a similarity, however can you show me from scripture where and how this liturgy was performed by robed clergymen. Show me from the scriptures!

2 Timothy 4:13 Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come -- and the books, especially the parchments.

The "cloak" is more literally the "chasuble." But I have never made the claim that a pasor must wear special vestments, but I don't see what is so offensive if he does. The garments are designed to keep attention away from the individual personality of the pastor. The pastor wears a black shirt to signify his own sinfulness and a white collar to show that he his like a dog with a collar whose master is God. The white around the neck signifies that the words he speaks are not his own but the Word of God.

I agree that it would be poor judgement just to say that something is wrong because it is catholic-like. However it is not poor judgment if those similarities are anti-gospel, along with being unscriptural traditions.

But which traditions practiced by the Lutheran church that is shares with the Catholic church do you believe to be anti-Gospel?

Please be more specific. What things?

I already did list quite a few things and I could list more if you would like:

I challenge anyone for instance to come up with a reason why I shouldn't confess my sins to God, call upon God, call upon Christ for mercy, bless God, recognize Christ as the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, chant a Psalm, hear an Old Testament reading, an Epistle reading, a Gospel reading, a sermon, partake of the Lord's Supper, sing Thanksgiving to God, etc.

Remember Charles "there is no salvation outside of Christ"

When have I denied this?

By the way Charles, what does all this have to do with the original topic of this thread!! Now please share with us your Lutheran (Barthian) views on Election as taught by the Missouri Synod.

I agree with the statement you already posted:

. Furthermore, by election of grace, Scripture does not mean that one part of God’s counsel of salvation according to which He will receive into heaven those who persevere in faith unto the end, but, on the contrary, Scripture means this, that God, before the foundation of the world, from pure grace, because of the redemption of Christ, has chosen for His own a definite number of persons out of the corrupt mass and has determined to bring them throughWord and Sacrament, to faith and salvation.

Karl Barth taught that all men are elect, which is quite different from what the statement above says.

[Saint Nicholas]

Charles....please let's keep this discussion to the assigned topic of Election. Please explain your understanding of this section below.

37. But as earnestly as we maintain that there is an election of grace, or a predestination to salvation, so decidedly do we teach, on the other hand, that there is no election of wrath, or predestination to damnation.Scripture plainly reveals the truth that the love of God for the world of lost sinners is universal, that is, that it embraces alt men without exception, that Christ has fully reconciled all men unto God, and that God earnestly desires to bring all men to faith, to preserve them therein, and thus to save them, as Scripture testifies, 1 Tim. 2:4: "God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." No man is lost because God has predestined him to eternal damnation. --Eternal election is a cause why the elect are brought to faith in time, Acts 13:48; but election is not a cause why men remain unbelievers when they hear the Word of God. The reason assigned by Scripture for this sad fact is that these men judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life, putting the Word of God from them and obstinately resisting the Holy Ghost, whose earnest will it is to bring also them to repentance and faith by means of the Word, Act 13:46; 7:51; Matt. 23:37.