If one were to understand that "all men" means all without distinction and not all without exception, then the paradox is gone.Originally Posted by wildboar
Any paradox with the Trinity is also due to a lack of understanding.
If one were to understand that "all men" means all without distinction and not all without exception, then the paradox is gone.
Any paradox with the Trinity is also due to a lack of understanding.
Rom 8:18-21, (NASB), For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
1 Corinthians 8:10-13 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
The warnings above make no sense in the limited atonement model.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Then please supply us with the understanding needed.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Well, the most simple way to view it is this:
1. The Father, a divine person, is God.
2. The Son, a divine person, is God.
3. The Holy Spirit, a divine person, is God.
4. Being infinite and not finite, God is one substance or entity. He cannot be other than One or He would not be infinite.
6. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, though separate persons, have no purposes or thoughts that are independent of one another. Therefore, since God is One, we refer to each of them as God or to all of them collectively as God.
But we really don't need to re-hash what has already been settled in past history.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Here are the five articles of the Remonstrants followed by a typical Calvinist mis-statement of Article 3. Calvinists and Lutherans both confuse the teaching of Arminius with that of Wesley. Arminius did not deny 'Total Depravity' in any manner as it is defined by Lutherans. I can see no difference between present confessional Lutheranism and the articles of the Remonstrants (Arminianism).
The Five Articles of the Remonstrants, 1610
Article 1.
[Conditional Election - corresponds to the second of TULIP’s five points, Unconditional Election]
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.
Article 2.
[Unlimited Atonement - corresponds to the third of TULIP’s five points, Limited Atonement]
That, accordingly, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Article 3.
[Deprivation - corresponds to the first of TULIP’s five points, Total Depravity]
That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”
Article 4.
[Resistible Grace - corresponds to the fourth of TULIP’s five points, IrresistibleGrace]
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to the extent that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places).
Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.
These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.
The Calvinist mis-statement:
A Brief Comparative Study of:
Arminianism and Calvinism
Arminianism
Calvinism
Free-Will or Human AbilityAlthough human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.
Total Inability or Total DepravityBecause of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.
Conditional ElectionGod's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Unconditional ElectionGod's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Universal Redemption or General AtonementChrist's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.
Particular Redemption or Limited AtonementChrist's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.
The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted
The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.
The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or
Irresistible GraceIn addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.
Falling from GraceThose who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.
Perseverance of the SaintsAll who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.
According to Arminianism:
Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) - man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, "choose" to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.
According to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.
The following material was taken from The Five Points of CALVINISM - Defined, Defended, Documented. David N. Steele and Curtis Thomas, are Baptist ministers in Little Rock, Arkansas. Their contrast of the Five Points of Calvinism with the Five Points of Arminianism is the clearest and most concise form found for the edification of the average student. It is also included as an Appendix in, Romans: An Interpretive Outline by the same authors. Each of these books is published by the Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., Phillipsburg, N.J.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
The Remonstrants were purposefully subtle. If you read the first point carefully you will find that the Remostrants teach that God's decree of election is based upon a foreseen faith (which is clear from their other writings). This is contrary to the Lutheran Confessions which make the election unconditional.
Arminius defined election as "the decree of God by which, of Himself, from eternity, He decreed to justify in Christ, believers, and to accept them unto eternal life."
Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace."
There is the idea of cooperation in the language above. Man is said to be assisted by grace as he is in Roman Catholic semi-Pelagianism.
Wesley is all over the board. He was no theologian and he contradicted himself many a time. I don't think that anyone could really construct a Wesleyan system without Adam Clarke.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
I am not convinced that these differences with Arminius are material or substantive at all! The difference between Arminian and Wesleyan systems is clear:
Arminius: regeneration must precede faith.
Wesley: faith must precede regeneration.
There is no use complicating it a lot beyond that.
The Remonstrant articles DO NOT explicitly say that God elects on the basis of forseen faith; that is a Calvinist and Lutheran imputation to their motives.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
The Remonstrant article says:
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ...those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the endThis is true but there is still co-operation and synergism within the theology of Arminius. Arminius' view corresponds closely with Roman Catholic theology whereas Wesleyanism and much of modern Baptist theology goes beyond Roman Catholicism when it comes to the doctrine of regeneration. But neither view corresponds with the Lutheran position.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
I need substantive, not perceptional and very doubtful proposition of differences to persuade me that there is a distinction between positions. Arminius was keen on 'mystery' and claimed to be a true Calvinist (NOT a Catholic). I still don't see that the Remonstrant articles affirm election based on the foresight of faith; for those who claim that they logically do I can equally claim that ANY conditional position on election logically does!
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Arminius was a student of Calvin and the canons had not yet been written. Arminius considered himself to be in harmony with the Belgic Confession and the Heidelburg and he was. Later Calvinists also were comfortable with the term mystery, so by the same logic you would have to conclude that all Calvinists and Lutherans and Arminians teach the same thing on this doctrine.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Charles: Later Calvinists also were comfortable with the term mystery, so by the same logic you would have to conclude that all Calvinists and Lutherans and Arminians teach the same thing on this doctrine.
I have already explained in what sense I am, and am not, comfortable with the word 'mystery' as it is used in the Bible.
I agree that there is no essential difference between pre-Dort Calvinism, 'evangelical' or Fullerist Calvinism, Arminianism, and Lutheranism on the doctrine of election. I would be the first to renounce any of these four entities on their mushy soteriology!
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
So does this mean that Dort was a doctrinal innovation as far as Calvinism goes? I'm not saying I agree with you but based on the above assertion the Remonstrants were the one truly standing in the tradition and the authors of the Canons were deviating from that tradition. Since the Synod was called to deal with supposed deviations on the part of the Remonstrants from the Belgic Confession and the Heidelberg, does that mean that the Synod of Dort lied when it claimed that the Remonstrants deviated from these confessions?
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
\Bob, this must be a mistatement correct? You must have meant 'I am not comfortable with the way PEOPLE interpret the word mystery in the bible"
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.GALATIANS 5:22
Right LOJ, thanks for the correction!
does this mean that Dort was a doctrinal innovation as far as Calvinism goes?
'Calvinism', of course, is just that--an 'ism' and many from differing persuasions have claimed the label.
I would say that Dort is a more mature expression of the truths that Calvin espoused; it settled important issues that were not clearly resolved by earlier confessions. However, the Remonstrants were typical of the deterioration of 'Calvinism' that occurred after the death of Calvin himself--they did not teach a consistent predestination as espoused by Calvin.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
The Lutherans are very similar to their mother, Rome! They have ecumenical unity with her. And claim she is part of the body of Christ.
Nicholas
[/quote]
Hi,
Just out of interest, why do you give the impression that this is wrong?
Do you believe those who receive Christ need to leave the Roman Catholic denomination.
A short answer will be fine.
Thanks
YES!
Last edited by Saint Nicholas; 07-23-2008 at 08:01 AM.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28
The Lutherans are very similar to their mother, Rome! They have ecumenical unity with her. And claim she is part of the body of Christ.
Nicholas
Does that mean that you believe the R.Catholics and the Lutherans are in the same 'boat'?
The Lutherans are very similar to their mother, Rome! They have ecumenical unity with her. And claim she is part of the body of Christ.
Nicholas
Yes!......All who hold to a false Gospel are in the same boat. That would include all religions of this world also. In fact they are in a boat that is destined to Hell and damnation. The best thing to do for those that are elect and have believed the true Gospel of Christ, is to jump off the boat, focus on Christ (the Gospel), and walk on water. He who has ears let him hear.
Nicholas
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28
Thanks. So why do you believe the Lutherans are holding onto a false gospel. I'm sure you have many points, so I'd appreciate the 3 most important ones.
Thanks
Gav..You are correct I do have many points. And those points can be read in this very thread. Please read posts #1 #32 #35 #38 #43. Then please ask a specific question as to what specific area of soteriology you disagree with.
Nicholas
Last edited by Saint Nicholas; 07-26-2008 at 08:31 PM.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28
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