Election According To The Missouri Synod

[laiddownhislife]

Gav..You are correct I do have many points. And those points can be read in this very thread. Please read posts #1 #32 #35 #38 #43. Then please ask a specific question as to what specific area of soteriology you disagree with.

Nicholas

I'm not disagreeing, or have not found anything to disagree with yet, just wanting to hear and understand you, and why you make some of the remarks you make, so thanks so much for the time and effert you've put into this.
I appreciate it!

[laiddownhislife]

Nic,



For me; much of what has been debated in here is not my cup of tea[in that, though I find nothing to disagree with you on, I would not debate on it for now, if I did disagree.] but I have learned through reading, and asking questions.

I read those, thanks again, last perceived question.

Do you agree with the quote above?

"After both parties experience the New Birth through the sacrament of Water Baptism, the stain and corruption of Original Sin is removed and thus the will is now restored and made free once again. This restored free will has now been made able to co-operate with Grace by the gift of faith".35

[The Hawker]

Nic,



"After both parties experience the New Birth through the sacrament of Water Baptism, the stain and corruption of Original Sin is removed and thus the will is now restored and made free once again. This restored free will has now been made able to co-operate with Grace by the gift of faith".35

For what it is worth, my opinion is that the above statement does not line up with the bible. There are threads on this site that can answer this question.

[Saint Nicholas]

"After both parties experience the New Birth through the sacrament of Water Baptism, the stain and corruption of Original Sin is removed and thus the will is now restored and made free once again. This restored free will has now been made able to co-operate with Grace by the gift of faith".35

Do you agree with the quote above?

No! I do not believe that literal water regenerates ALL or any who come in contact with it. However, sadly this is what the LCMS, Papists, and other heretical reformed groups teach. This is nothing other than the Augustinian prescription for regeneration. These mystical, superstitious practices have for centuries empowered the clergy to the degree of dispensers of grace and salvation. Also I may add, that these same actions have beguiled the typical laymen in so far as they NEED this mediation of the clergy as a vital and necessary function of the Holy Spirit. Instead of the people of God being free in Christ, they have once again been entangled in the yoke of bondage. The new covenant of Grace Alone has been destroyed and the Old covenant of works has been re-established. Re-established of course under Christological wording.

Nicholas

[wildboar]

Water baptism is a mystical, superstitous practice? Does that mean that Jesus and Paul were superstitious, mysticists? Lutherans do not teach that water alone is baptism but water joined to the Word because God attaches His promise to it. Since the Lutheran confessions also teach that any Christian can baptize (although it is ordinarily the minister who does it for the sake of order) I don't know how this beguiles the laity or empowers the clergy.

(Warning: Sarcasm alert!) I know, I know, it's superstitious to take the statements of Scripture such as "baptism now saves us" and "baptism for the remission of sins" and the "laver of regeneration" literally. We have to summon the Platonists who can dig in and find the REAL meaning for us behind the outward forms and shadows. The Bible must just be like Plato's cave.

[Robert R. Higby]

Water baptism in and of itself, of course, is not superstitious--because it is a testimony to faith commanded by Christ. But when the water is affirmed to be 'majic' according to sacramental theology, then it IS indeed proposed to be mystical and superstitious--along the lines of ceremonies practiced by the heathen religions. It proposes that babies who get the drip are more likely to be recipients of salvation than those who don't; that children of paedobaptists are more sure and certain candidates for eternal life than children of non-paedobaptists. This is the false teaching that God damns to hell.

[Saint Nicholas]

[QUOTE=wildboar;58987]Water baptism is a mystical, superstitous practice?
Yes! if it attached with salvific connotations ie. regeneration

Does that mean that Jesus and Paul were superstitious, mysticists?

No!



Lutherans do not teach that water alone is baptism but water joined to the Word because God attaches His promise to it.
So now we need the baptism of John the baptist and the baptism of Jesus synthesized to be regenerated right? Did not John the baptist say that "I baptize you with water, but He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit"? Did not John the baptist also state the he (John the baptist) must decrease but Christ must increase. Does not Paul state in 1 Corinthians "For by one Spirit (not water) we were all baptized into one body" Then you state that all who receive the drip are promised regeneration by God attaching His promise. Charles, you just don't get it "For by Grace Alone are you saved through faith Alone" " Therefore being Justified by Faith Alone we have peace with God" And what about Titus 3:5 ? It is evident that the washing of regeneration is by the washing of the Holy Spirit Alone, and not John's literal water.


Since the Lutheran confessions also teach that any Christian can baptize (although it is ordinarily the minister who does it for the sake of order) I don't know how this beguiles the laity or empowers the clergy.
Even the Papist's teach that in extreme circumstances where a priest is not available, that an infant can be water sprinkled so that the infant can receive the sacrament and have a CHANCE for salvation. Chuck you are being unrealistic here. What do most Lutherans do when they have a new born infant? They schedule a water baptism for the child. Why? Because they know that without this water the child cannot become a member of the body of Christ.


(Warning: Sarcasm alert!) I know, I know, it's superstitious to take the statements of Scripture such as "baptism now saves us" and "baptism for the remission of sins" and the "laver of regeneration" literally. We have to summon the Platonists who can dig in and find the REAL meaning for us behind the outward forms and shadows. The Bible must just be like Plato's cave.

No true Christian would ever deny that "baptism now saves us", however, it is Christ's (Holy Spirit) baptism that saves. Not John's literal water.

I have spoken with many folks over the years and even before you were born Charles, that are members of churches that teach baptismal regeneration. When I asked them how they became a Christian and part of the body of Christ, most of them said when they were infant baptized. Their answers alone show the incorrectness of the satanic teaching of sacraments

[wildboar]

But when the water is affirmed to be 'majic' according to sacramental theology, then it IS indeed proposed to be mystical and superstitious--along the lines of ceremonies practiced by the heathen religions. It proposes that babies who get the drip are more likely to be recipients of salvation than those who don't; that children of paedobaptists are more sure and certain candidates for eternal life than children of non-paedobaptists. This is the false teaching that God damns to hell.

I cannot speak for all sacramental theology but Lutheran sacramental theology does not view baptism as magic. It is a means through which the Holy Spirit delivers the grace of God and works faith in Christ. In previous threads I have provided substantial evidence from God's Word that this is what baptism does. Please provide evidence from Scripture that God damns this to hell. Without lack of Scriptural support I can only conclude that Robert Higby damns this to hell and that doesn't really matter to me.

Because they know that without this water the child cannot become a member of the body of Christ.

This is untrue as I have explained previously. God attaches His promise to baptism. But God does work outside of the means of baptism as well.

[wildboar]

John the baptist say that "I baptize you with water, but He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit"? Did not John the baptist also state the he (John the baptist) must decrease but Christ must increase. Does not Paul state in 1 Corinthians "For by one Spirit (not water) we were all baptized into one body" Then you state that all who receive the drip are promised regeneration by God attaching His promise. Charles, you just don't get it "For by Grace Alone are you saved through faith Alone" " Therefore being Justified by Faith Alone we have peace with God" And what about Titus 3:5 ? It is evident that the washing of regeneration is by the washing of the Holy Spirit Alone, and not John's literal water.

Since Paul says that there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism, why would we need to conclude that there are two baptisms? Jesus' apostles still baptized while he was with them and they continued to after His ascension.

[Saint Nicholas]

Since Paul says that there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism, why would we need to conclude that there are two baptisms?
You have just made my point! There is only one baptism and not two. The only one and true baptism that can effectually regenerate the dead soul is the Spirit baptism.


Jesus' apostles still baptized while he was with them and they continued to after His ascension.

And Jesus and His disciples still entered the temple on the Sabbath, observed the Passover, along with other Mosaic requirements. Are you suggesting that we should perform these also? After Christ's ascension and subsequently Pentecost, The new wineskins were in place. Should we pour the new wine (Christ) into the old wineskins (Moses)? There were many things the Apostles did in the book of Acts that still conveyed an immature understanding of the full corn Gospel. It was not till Paul fully expounded the true meaning of Grace and Justification. Once understood, all notions of a works based Gospel and Mosaic washings were rendered null and void that is non-effectual.

Nicholas

[Highlyfavored]

I cannot speak for all sacramental theology but Lutheran sacramental theology does not view baptism as magic. It is a means through which the Holy Spirit delivers the grace of God and works faith in Christ. In previous threads I have provided substantial evidence from God's Word that this is what baptism does.

WB you can disagree if you wish, you came from a calvinistic paradigm at one. If you honestly believe that the Lutheran view of baptism is not synergism or baptismal regeneration then you are truly deluded.

de-lude |diˈloōd|
verb [ trans. ]
impose a misleading belief upon (someone); deceive; fool : too many theorists have deluded the public | [as adj. ] ( deluded) the poor deluded creature.

DERIVATIVES
del-ud-ed-ly adverb
de-lud-er |dəˈludər| |diˈludər| noun
ORIGIN late Middle English : from Latin deludere ‘to mock,’ from de- (with pejorative force) + ludere ‘to play.’

[Calvinator]

I cannot speak for all sacramental theology but Lutheran sacramental theology does not view baptism as magic. It is a means through which the Holy Spirit delivers the grace of God and works faith in Christ. In previous threads I have provided substantial evidence from God's Word that this is what baptism does.

The Gospel of Christ is so simple man stumbles right over it. Wildboar, you are stumbling over it. God's grace is electing and there is nothing that you or I can do to obtain favor or grace from God. There is nothing that you or I can do to make ourselves a more favorable candidate for favor or grace.

Those that seek God's grace by works and/or sacraments will never, never, never find it. God's grace is found by those that were not seeking. If anything, works and sacraments are a hindrance to grace. God rejects any help from us in obtaining grace and it is a foul stench in His nostrils.

Ether God loves a person or He hates a person and there is nothing that we can do to change that. God is ether one's Savior or He is one's worst enemy. One is an elect child of God or one is His enemy and He will treat one as such. This is true for each and everyone of us.

If God loves you, you will love Him back. Not a false God. Not a God created in the minds of wicked man, but the One true God and you will know of His one true grace.

[MCoving]

I cannot speak for all sacramental theology but Lutheran sacramental theology does not view baptism as magic. It is a means through which the Holy Spirit delivers the grace of God and works faith in Christ. In previous threads I have provided substantial evidence from God's Word that this is what baptism does.

You are missing the point that Nicholas has said, baptism to God is the Holy Spirit not water. Water is only something we do if we want to show others we are saved, it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with God's grace towards us. The Holy Spirit is the means through which GOD delivers His grace and works faith in Christ. Not some water...

You provide Scriptures out of context, from a Lutheran perspective. You take their theology which you are accustomed too, you take their traditions and find verses that support it. But here we are trying to show you that they are wrong, there are verses against that understanding of yours.

Mt 3:11, (NASB), "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mk 1:8, (NASB), "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 11:16, (NASB), "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

That bolded phrase right there is key, and that is what Lutherans and yourself ignore!!! Jesus will baptize when He comes with the Holy Spirit and fire. NOT WATER! Before Jesus came water baptism was for repentance, the Holy Spirit didn't even come during baptism see Acts 20 I think but after when they layed hands on the believers. But no it says here that it is the Holy Spirit that will baptize from now on.. from when Jesus comes on... not water baptism. So unless you are living BEFORE Jesus came you should put importance on the Holy Spirit baptism NOT water. Are you living before Jesus' time? Is it John's baptism you seek instead of Jesus'?????

1 Pet 3:21, (NASB), Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Baptism with water here is not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience. It is an act we do to show others, to have a good conscience and say yes I serve the Lord, He is my Savior, I want others to know what He has done for me. Its A proclamation of what the Lord has done, from His dying, resurrection to HIS BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!!! Water baptism is something we do now to show that we have been baptized by the Holy Spirit!! You have it all backwards, you make water baptism out to be something miraclulous and some sort of saving grace.. when God Himself said NO! It is the Holy Spirit baptism which is important not water! That was changed when Jesus came.... will you change too or will you just live in John's time and not accept that Jesus came and changed baptism to make it be by the Holy Spirit. So honestly if we never have water baptism it wouldn't matter.. for its the Holy Spirit's baptism that matters now!!!

[wildboar]

St. Nick:

Christian baptism as such was not part of Old Testament Mosaic law. Christian baptism continued in the Christian church and was applied to Gentiles. The same is not true of circumcision. Paul's statement that he did not come to baptize points to his particular role in the church as Apostle--of not acting as a pastor of any particular church but establishing churches. Paul also continually pointed people to their baptisms. Paul never says that baptism is nothing. He continually speaks of those "baptized into Christ" and so forth and there is no reason to believe that there is one physical and another completely separate spiritual baptism in view.

HF:

I am aware of the definition of deluded. However what you have not proved is that baptismal regeneration=synergism. Baptism is the work of God, therefore it is not synergistic. It becomes synergistic when Baptistic ideas that baptism is simply an act of obedience on our part are introduced.

[Calvinator]

I am aware of the definition of deluded. However what you have not proved is that baptismal regeneration=synergism. Baptism is the work of God, therefore it is not synergistic. It becomes synergistic when Baptistic ideas that baptism is simply an act of obedience on our part are introduced.

Being Baptized in the Spirit is the work of God. Being baptized with water is a work of man. If you believe that being baptized in water, will cause or allow God to Baptize you with the Spirit - that is synergism.

Synergism - The doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Spirit in the work of regeneration.

Monergism - The doctrine that the Holy Spirit acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

Christianity is monergistic. Willing one's self to be baptized and then being baptized will just get you wet.

Baptismal regeneration is a false doctrine. Water baptism is for the believer, not for those that seek regeneration.

[Saint Nicholas]

Isn't it a strange thing that all our our discussions with WB always gravitate toward the sacraments? No matter what the topic of the thread is, somehow it always gets sidetracked with sacramentalism. Enough energy has been exerted over the sacraments. Not only on this forum, but for centuries and centuries. Let the Papists and all her whore daughters drown in their sinful water baptism. Let them die in their false Gospel. For God has appointed them blindness, darkness, and delusion. Only the Elect will see the errors of this horrid and satanic doctrine.

Nicholas

[Saint Nicholas]

Being Baptized in the Spirit is the work of God. Being baptized with water is a work of man. If you believe that being baptized in water, will cause or allow God to Baptize you with the Spirit - that is synergism.

Synergism - The doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Spirit in the work of regeneration.

Monergism - The doctrine that the Holy Spirit acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

Christianity is monergistic. Willing one's self to be baptized and then being baptized will just get you wet.

Baptismal regeneration is a false doctrine. Water baptism is for the believer, not for those that seek regeneration.

Very correct my brother! The Gospel of John 1:12-13 "But as many received Him, to them He gave the right to become the children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

[Robert R. Higby]

WB: It is a means through which the Holy Spirit delivers the grace of God and works faith in Christ.

Then you are making the GREATER baptism of the Holy Spirit which comes from God alone dependent on the LESSER baptism of water which is controlled and easily manipulated by man. So God has supposedly made His own sovereign work of Holy Spirit baptism in granting regeneration and faith to the elect dependent upon a material act invented by puny and sinful man who claims (?) that the particular administration being given is infallibly the one taught by Christ.

As far as sacramental theology being damned by God: But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! Sola fide rules. If water baptism is turned into a sacrament instead of a testimony of grace it is changing it into a neo-nomian work added to faith and this is a false gospel condemned by God.

[lionovjudah]

WB: It is a means through which the Holy Spirit delivers the grace of God and works faith in Christ.

Then you are making the GREATER baptism of the Holy Spirit which comes from God alone dependent on the LESSER baptism of water which is controlled and easily manipulated by man. So God has supposedly made His own sovereign work of Holy Spirit baptism in granting regeneration and faith to the elect dependent upon a material act invented by puny and sinful man who claims (?) that the particular administration being given is infallibly the one taught by Christ.

As far as sacramental theology being damned by God: But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! Sola fide rules. If water baptism is turned into a sacrament instead of a testimony of grace it is changing it into a neo-nomian work added to faith and this is a false gospel condemned by God.

Bob what is your understanding of Holy Spirit baptism and what does it include and look like?

[wildboar]

Being Baptized in the Spirit is the work of God. Being baptized with water is a work of man. If you believe that being baptized in water, will cause or allow God to Baptize you with the Spirit - that is synergism.

Please provide me with Biblical proof that water baptism is the work of man. Water baptism is not water only but water joined with the Word. It is entirely the work of God. Since my position and the Lutheran position teaches the above, you cannot claim that we are teaching synergism. It is only synergism if you believe that water baptism is the work of man.