Jesus says no to war.

[laiddownhislife]

9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matt 5.

It seems quite clear in the New Testament, we, as Christ lovers, should love and not hate our enemies.
Does this mean we should not go to war?

[Highlyfavored]

What do you think laiddownhislife?

[wildboar]

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matt 5.

It seems quite clear in the New Testament, we, as Christ lovers, should love and not hate our enemies.
Does this mean we should not go to war?

There is a difference between what we are called to do as individual Christians and what those whom God has placed in office are called to do and what those who find their vocation as soldiers are called to do.

Romans 13:1-8 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

The government is described in the above as the sword-bearer. The sword is a device used to kill. The chief function of government is to protect its citizens both from those within and those without. This is a power given by God.

People do misuse this power and engage in unjust wars. I believe the current "war" to be unjust and unconstitutional. I would personally have a difficult time serving as a soldier in this war. I would have a hard time serving my country as I should and serving God as I should. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is sinful to be a soldier even in an unjust war. The soldier acts as a tool of the government.

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matt 5.

It seems quite clear in the New Testament, we, as Christ lovers, should love and not hate our enemies.
Does this mean we should not go to war?

Christ said "If this were my Kingdom, my servants would fight"...

Amen?

[Robert R. Higby]

There must be a clear distinction drawn between the kingdom of Christ as advanced by the gospel and the kingdoms of this world. The kingdom of Christ is NEVER to be advanced by the power of the sword but only by the Holy Spirit; that is what Jesus refers to when He spurns war.

In the history of nations, there is indeed both just and unjust war from the standpoint of respecting humanity as created in God's image. A country that attempts, however imperfectly, to stand by just and decent principles of human governance is ordained of God to use the sword to combat terrorism, barbarism, foreign invasion, murder, etc.

[laiddownhislife]

"But a most pernicious error widely prevails that Scripture has only so much weight as is conceded to it by the consent of the church. As if the eternal and inviolable truth of God depended upon the decision of men!" ... John Calvin

Well, yes, this is true to some individuals, but if the church decides to do something wrong, then individuals need to stand against this.

[laiddownhislife]

There is a difference between what we are called to do as individual Christians and what those whom God has placed in office are called to do and what those who find their vocation as soldiers are called to do.

Romans 13:1-8 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

The government is described in the above as the sword-bearer. The sword is a device used to kill. The chief function of government is to protect its citizens both from those within and those without. This is a power given by God.

People do misuse this power and engage in unjust wars. I believe the current "war" to be unjust and unconstitutional. I would personally have a difficult time serving as a soldier in this war. I would have a hard time serving my country as I should and serving God as I should. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is sinful to be a soldier even in an unjust war. The soldier acts as a tool of the government.

I agree that the state carries a sword. There is very much a difference, between the kingdom of the world, and the kingdom of God.

I am glad to hear you will have a problem in fighting in this present war!

Can anyone righteously say:"I love my enemy, and at the same time I destroy both civilians and my enemies with any weapon I deem fit"?

[laiddownhislife]

[quote=Ugly_Gaunt_Cow;58622]Christ said "If this were my Kingdom, my servants would fight"...

Yes, the two kingdom concept!

[Toplady]

I agree with Robert,

In the book of Ecclesiastes the wisdom in that book tells us there is a proper time for everything...sometimes the right thing to do is to stand up against the enemy and fight to the death...but the actual battle is not with flesh and blood, but the powers and principalities that are at work behind the scenes, so to speak

[laiddownhislife]

There must be a clear distinction drawn between the kingdom of Christ as advanced by the gospel and the kingdoms of this world. The kingdom of Christ is NEVER to be advanced by the power of the sword but only by the Holy Spirit; that is what Jesus refers to when He spurns war.

In the history of nations, there is indeed both just and unjust war from the standpoint of respecting humanity as created in God's image. A country that attempts, however imperfectly, to stand by just and decent principles of human governance is ordained of God to use the sword to combat terrorism, barbarism, foreign invasion, murder, etc.

I agree too, if I understand what Robert says correctly.This is how I understand him.
1]Our weapons are spiritual, not physical.
2]The government can use the sword, but if 1] is correct, then it needs to be done without the Christian taking up the sword.

Have I understood Robert correctly?

[Toplady]

A country that attempts, however imperfectly, to stand by just and decent principles of human governance is ordained of God to use the sword to combat terrorism, barbarism, foreign invasion, murder, etc.

Maybe not...?

This is a difficult topic, one that would require the individual to follow his conscience....and as I said, the writer of Ecclesiastes was inspired when he stated there is a time for everything...

What seems "harsh" and "unloving" often isn't....and what is done to promote one government over another won't amount to a hill of beans in the world to come... what will count is how much we tried to do the will of God. To some that means picking up a gun and fighting the Iraquis...to others it means to protest any wars...

Not everyone sees His will being the same thing, but God does look to see if we are true to our convictions, and even then He is gracious, as we are to be gracious, we are to be forgiving as He is forgiving....

But He also will come down real hard on the nations and unbelievers, and yet, He still is a loving and merciful God.

[Robert R. Higby]

Susan, when you state 'maybe not', are you suggesting that a country that attempts to stand by just and decent principles of human governance MAY NOT be ordained of God to use the sword to combat terrorism, barbarism, foreign invasion, and murder? I don't quite see what you are proposing here.

[Toplady]

Hi Robert,

I was answering Gav's question (post just before mine)...but I agree that the world govts will do what they will, and that each individual must follow his conscience regarding what he thinks he must do to the best of what they believe to be the right thing to do in every situation.

I agree that taking up a literal sword, or gun, in this life is sometimes necessary. Jesus had nothing bad to say to the centurians....He could have told them what they were about was wrong, but He did not...but He told Peter to put his sword away....so He treats each individual in their individual ways, what is right for you might not be right in my circumstances....so I agree with the words of Ecclesiastes

To give you another example, I know I wouldn't make a good policeman (or policewoman, rather) but the work that I do, I do well, but there are many others that would not like to do, or maybe would not be able, to do the work I do. God made us all different, and each of us hears a distinct call from Him to use our differing gifts in various manners, some to call out "peace!" and some to hold the peace with a firearm...and in the end, God is still in control over all things

[laiddownhislife]

Maybe not...?

This is a difficult topic, one that would require the individual to follow his conscience....and as I said, the writer of Ecclesiastes was inspired when he stated there is a time for everything...

What seems "harsh" and "unloving" often isn't....and what is done to promote one government over another won't amount to a hill of beans in the world to come... what will count is how much we tried to do the will of God. To some that means picking up a gun and fighting the Iraquis...to others it means to protest any wars...

Not everyone sees His will being the same thing, but God does look to see if we are true to our convictions, and even then He is gracious, as we are to be gracious, we are to be forgiving as He is forgiving....

But He also will come down real hard on the nations and unbelievers, and yet, He still is a loving and merciful God.

Is it good for a Christian to stand on either side of in any war,( but for the moment this Iraq vs mainly the U.S.A.) AND TRY AND KILL EACH OTHER?

Mk 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Mk 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

My answer would be no.

Is killing my enemy and wounding innocent woman and children at the same time God's call on the Christians life ?

To me being gracious is to tell anyone committing such violence in the Name of Jesus, needs to repent, surley?

[laiddownhislife]

Hi Robert,

I was answering Gav's question (post just before mine)...but I agree that the world govts will do what they will, and that each individual must follow his conscience regarding what he thinks he must do to the best of what they believe to be the right thing to do in every situation.

I agree that taking up a literal sword, or gun, in this life is sometimes necessary. Jesus had nothing bad to say to the centurians....He could have told them what they were about was wrong, but He did not...but He told Peter to put his sword away....so He treats each individual in their individual ways, what is right for you might not be right in my circumstances....so I agree with the words of Ecclesiastes

To give you another example, I know I wouldn't make a good policeman (or policewoman, rather) but the work that I do, I do well, but there are many others that would not like to do, or maybe would not be able, to do the work I do. God made us all different, and each of us hears a distinct call from Him to use our differing gifts in various manners, some to call out "peace!" and some to hold the peace with a firearm...and in the end, God is still in control over all things

Though I answer you like this , please be assured of my love. This is just a form of debate, and I am not opposed to you personaly!

Firstly , though Jesus didn't say much to the centurians, He did leave the command;
Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

We donot have to answer for those centurians. We need to answer for what situation we find ourselves in today, and for the influence we have when we meet a soldier from either side.

But I think my questions posted in the post immediatly above need some answering.

Blessings

[Highlyfavored]

Is it good for a Christian to stand on either side of in any war,( but for the moment this Iraq vs mainly the U.S.A.) AND TRY AND KILL EACH OTHER?

Mk 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Mk 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

My answer would be no.

Is killing my enemy and wounding innocent woman and children at the same time God's call on the Christians life ?

To me being gracious is to tell anyone committing such violence in the Name of Jesus, needs to repent, surley?

What if one has the liberty to fight in a war and does not share your same convictions?

1 Cor 6:1-12, (NASB)

1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
4 So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?
5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,
6 but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

I would say that some of the limitations we have should not be placed on other brethren.

[MCoving]

To me being gracious is to tell anyone committing such violence in the Name of Jesus, needs to repent, surley?

Huh?! So you believe anyone in the military oversees in Iraq fighting is sinning and should repent?

[laiddownhislife]

Huh?! So you believe anyone in the military oversees in Iraq fighting is sinning and should repent?

You decide for yourself. The way I see what Jesus said quoted above is pretty clear. Any one who is unloving needs to repent.

[laiddownhislife]

What if one has the liberty to fight in a war and does not share your same convictions?I would say that some of the limitations we have should not be placed on other brethren.

I'm only advocating obedience to Jesus, what else is there for us to do?
There are some interesting questions above, go ahead and answer them?

[Toplady]

Gav...Do you equate suffering and death by war as equal to being "unloving" or unkind?....God punishes those whom He loves, how do you reconcile that?