Jesus says no to war.

[Robert R. Higby]

I have to say this, the command of Jesus to Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; is obviously addressed to how we relate to other people who hate us in our personal lives; NOT to the issue of wars between nations and whether such wars are just or unjust in any particular case. We will do great harm to the gospel of Christ if we confuse His commandments to us personally (which ARE to BE OBEYED to the full) with political issues.

[The Hawker]

I have to say this, the command of Jesus to Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; is obviously addressed to how we relate to other people who hate us in our personal lives; NOT to the issue of wars between nations and whether such wars are just or unjust in any particular case. We will do great harm to the gospel of Christ if we confuse His commandments to us personally (which ARE to BE OBEYED to the full) with political issues.

AMEN!

[rlhuckle]

You decide for yourself. The way I see what Jesus said quoted above is pretty clear. Any one who is unloving needs to repent.

Would you be calling upon God to repent of His "unloving" the reprobate (Esau, for example)?

[Toplady]

The way we view "loving" and what God says is loving, are vastly different....our flesh tends to think in ways that satisfy our flesh, God has no such sentimentality....His ways are not our (fleshy) ways....good thing, too, or we would all be on very wishy-washy shifting sands, but Jesus is the Rock on which we stand, not sentimental and wishy-washy, and yet, truly loving

[rlhuckle]

Agreed! All one need do is look at Paul prior to his regeneration and how he persecuted Christ's followers. He would be one "enemy" the early believers were praying for according to Christ's admonition!

We can never know who may be regenerated until it happens.

Since God has ordained the foolishness of preaching as one of His means, I think anyplace where preaching the gospel is outlawed or inhibited should be a focus of prayer and of liberating activity--whether it be by governments or individuals. One of the best ways of demonstrating love for people is helping to create an atmosphere where free and uninhibited exchange of ideas is the norm. Freedom has always cost the blood of those who have been and are willing to make the sacrifice; and laying down one's life for his friends is love indeed.

[Toplady]

One of the best ways of demonstrating love for people is helping to create an atmosphere where free and uninhibited exchange of ideas is the norm. Freedom has always cost the blood of those who have been and are willing to make the sacrifice; and laying down one's life for his friends is love indeed.

That is so true...

We place too much concern and value on this mortal life (and I include myself in the "we"... ) the fight is for greater things than what we in our flesh say are the most important things... we all get it wrong most of the time anyway, lol.... so whether we join the army, marines, or whether we go on a mission in a foreign land with the Bible as our only weapon against the enemy, it should be as our conscience individually directs, not other people's conscience directing other people... we each should be convinced in our own mind as to the calling each of us have for ourselves, not to broadbrush that conviction for everyone else, and in what manner we ourselves individually are to lay our life down for Jesus.

[laiddownhislife]

Gav...Do you equate suffering and death by war as equal to being "unloving" or unkind?....God punishes those whom He loves, how do you reconcile that?

I can't understand the first part of the question. Is ther another way of asking please?

Are you saying that God wants to punish "Christians" by sending other "Christians" to war against them and their families?

I notice you have made no attempt to answer any of my questions above.

[Toplady]

Is it good for a Christian to stand on either side of in any war,( but for the moment this Iraq vs mainly the U.S.A.) AND TRY AND KILL EACH OTHER?

Do you know the motives behind what anyone else, which would include Christians, are? No? God does, so God alone would know how this would be answered correctly for each individual.

Mk 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Mk 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

My answer would be no.

Is killing my enemy and wounding innocent woman and children at the same time God's call on the Christians life ?

If it happens as a consequence of following one's duties as a soldier, it would be no more wrong than having killed someone in a car accident on the way to work.

To me being gracious is to tell anyone committing such violence in the Name of Jesus, needs to repent, surley?

And to me, I am to tell others that God speaks to each of us individually, with a calling that is seperate and distinct for each of us....you may not be called to be a police officer or a soldier who may have to kill as a consequence of a line of duty...but neither should I tell you that you shouldn't have the job God has called you to do....btw what is your secular line of work?

[laiddownhislife]

I have to say this, the command of Jesus to Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; is obviously addressed to how we relate to other people who hate us in our personal lives; NOT to the issue of wars between nations and whether such wars are just or unjust in any particular case. We will do great harm to the gospel of Christ if we confuse His commandments to us personally (which ARE to BE OBEYED to the full) with political issues.

What I notice is that an army/platoon is made up of individuals that have a choice to say yes I will go and fight, or no I will take no physical weapon, but the word of God.

This is not a political question! This is asking you, or your son, or your daughter/cousin/uncle/aunt etc,"are you loving your enemy?

Let's not pretend that a soldier fighting in Iraq is fighting against his/her friend.Are they not fighting their enemy?

In this site, I'm encouraging "Christians" to obedience to His command.
As I posed a number of questions on page 1, it would be interesting for the individual to answer these questions(aloud or silently) to him/herself, and obviously before His King.

[laiddownhislife]

Would you be calling upon God to repent of His "unloving" the reprobate (Esau, for example)?

Are you choosing to ignore that Jesus changed;

Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

[rlhuckle]

Are you choosing to ignore that Jesus changed;

Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

God never changes; He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Do you remember this one:

Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

In any event; there are those whom God has ordained to fight, those whom God has ordained to live; those whom God has ordained to die. As Christ said:

Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

[Toplady]

When one has "taken up the sword" for his country as a matter of duty, that is different than having a personal vendetta against someone for a personal slight against you...otherwise Jesus was amiss for not warning the centurians He encountered by not telling them to change their line of work...

I'll ask you again, Gav, what do you do for "a living"?

[Toplady]

I'll ask you again, Gav, what do you do for "a living"?

If someone, let's say an Amish Christian, came to you and tried to force his convictions on you....would that be right? and should you live in accordance with the convictions of another person's heart?

Is it right for you to say any who follow their convictions to bear arms for their country is wrong because it is not what your convictions tell you to do?

Is it right for you to say a person should not protect his family by having a firearm in their home, which they have been trained to use properly? Is a person who shot an intruder on their property, someone who had malicious intent by the fact that they had prior assaults against others, etc, is such a person that defended his home and family wrong by Biblical commands, to do so?

If you feel conviction to say yes to all of the above, that is for you to do, so live that way yourself, and be blessed...but to broadbrush your convictions to force others to comply is wrong, by everyone's standards, unless you belong to a cult....(do you?)

[laiddownhislife]

[quote=rlhuckle;58823]God never changes; He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Do you remember this one:

Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

In any event; there are those whom God has ordained to fight, those whom God has ordained to live; those whom God has ordained to die. As Christ said:
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.[/quote

Great that you answer in this way, as I don't pay a subscription, so I can't read the ones, for example the last two that TopLady posted.


Roger,
Firstly, You quoted my question at the top of your last post, but you did not answer it. [I left the question mark out, sorry].

If you read this carefully, you will see I'm not saying that God changed, but that ;'An eye for an eye' law has changed! I like what you have posted, especially from Luke.

Please notice, that two swords were "enough," and he did not command His disciples to use them for killing!!! Nor did He contradict Himself in His command; to love their enemies. In fact, He said after this to Peter ;


Mt 26:52 Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Are you choosing to ignore that Jesus changed;
Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.
?

[MCoving]

I for one believe that any Christian fighting in Iraq is doing the right thing they are not sinning. I think from the few things I read Laiddownhislife believe they are not doing the right thing? That Christians should not fight in a war? If that is the case what about all the wars that God caused in the Old Testament? God sent His people to war against the enemies. Unless you think that like all changed in the NT? Which is kind of an absurd thinking. Here are some verses that talk of war... it was good that the prophets were at war, they were soldiers... that is the same today. There is nothing wrong with defending ourselves against enemies.

Hebrews 11:30-34
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. 32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

Ex 1:10, (NASB), "Come, let us deal wisely with them, or else they will multiply and in the event of war, they will also join themselves to those who hate us, and fight against us and depart from the land.
(you cant just do nothing if the enemy is trying to kill us, we dont just sit back and die.. we fight, just like the prophets did)
Ex 17:16, (NASB), and he said, "The Lord has sworn; the Lord will have war against Amalek from generation to generation."
Num 31:3, (NASB), Moses spoke to the people, saying, "Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian.
Num 31:7, (NASB), So they made war against Midian, just as the Lord had commanded Moses, and they killed every male.
Deut 20:12, (NASB), "However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it.
Judg 6:12, (NASB), The angel of the Lord appeared to him and said to him, "The Lord is with you, O valiant warrior."
Song 3:8, (NASB), All of them are wielders of the sword, Expert in war; Each man has his sword at his side, Guarding against the terrors of the night.
Eccl 3:8, (NASB), A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.

There is many, many more verses but I think you get the point. So I would say that Jesus says yes to war when it is necessary.

[MCoving]

[quote=laiddownhislife;58828]

God never changes; He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Do you remember this one:

Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

In any event; there are those whom God has ordained to fight, those whom God has ordained to live; those whom God has ordained to die. As Christ said:
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.[/quote

Great that you answer in this way, as I don't pay a subscription, so I can't read the ones, for example the last two that TopLady posted.


Roger,
Firstly, You quoted my question at the top of your last post, but you did not answer it. [I left the question mark out, sorry].

If you read this carefully, you will see I'm not saying that God changed, but that ;'An eye for an eye' law has changed! I like what you have posted, especially from Luke.

Please notice, that two swords were "enough," and he did not command His disciples to use them for killing!!! Nor did He contradict Himself in His command; to love their enemies. In fact, He said after this to Peter ;


Mt 26:52 Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Are you choosing to ignore that Jesus changed;
Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.
?

Jesus did say that, but that is referring to certain examples. That you dont go seeking revenge on a neighbor just because they wronged you. Eccelsiastes says it very well there is a time for love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. War is okay to God, He decreed many wars before He can do that again, and has. We dont just sit on our butts and do nothing when an enemy wages war on us and kills our people. We must take up the sword and protect ourselves. Just like the prophets did and were commended for their efforts in Hebrews for their faith, etc. No where does Jesus say "there shall be no war". Can you find that exact saying? I dont think so.. you find verses like love your enemies, and eye for and eye saying but that doesn't say anything about war. You are implying that Jesus meant war as well, but he could just meant everyday life.. like if someone steals from you dont go and kill them. He talks about the cloak and slapping ones face in those verses.. not about killing and war.

[Toplady]

I agree, Mary...war to fight for national values is different than having a personal vendetta against an individual....

I see nothing wrong with personal convictions that prevent a person to themselves "take up their sword (or in our day and age, gun)"...but to broadbrush everyone else and say that everyone else has to live by one individual's personal convictions, is incorrect...and something Jesus and Paul both said not to do.

[laiddownhislife]

I for one believe that any Christian fighting in Iraq is doing the right thing they are not sinning. I think from the few things I read Laiddownhislife believe they are not doing the right thing? That Christians should not fight in a war? If that is the case what about all the wars that God caused in the Old Testament? God sent His people to war against the enemies. Unless you think that like all changed in the NT? Which is kind of an absurd thinking. Here are some verses that talk of war... it was good that the prophets were at war, they were soldiers... that is the same today. There is nothing wrong with defending ourselves against enemies.

Hebrews 11:30-34
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. 32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

Ex 1:10, (NASB), "Come, let us deal wisely with them, or else they will multiply and in the event of war, they will also join themselves to those who hate us, and fight against us and depart from the land.
(you cant just do nothing if the enemy is trying to kill us, we dont just sit back and die.. we fight, just like the prophets did)
Ex 17:16, (NASB), and he said, "The Lord has sworn; the Lord will have war against Amalek from generation to generation."
Num 31:3, (NASB), Moses spoke to the people, saying, "Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian.
Num 31:7, (NASB), So they made war against Midian, just as the Lord had commanded Moses, and they killed every male.
Deut 20:12, (NASB), "However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it.
Judg 6:12, (NASB), The angel of the Lord appeared to him and said to him, "The Lord is with you, O valiant warrior."
Song 3:8, (NASB), All of them are wielders of the sword, Expert in war; Each man has his sword at his side, Guarding against the terrors of the night.
Eccl 3:8, (NASB), A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.

There is many, many more verses but I think you get the point. So I would say that Jesus says yes to war when it is necessary.

Hebrews 11 is about faith. These men were commended for their faith, the faith they had under the law that allowed ; 'an eye for an eye'.

The reason why I ask the questions on page1, is because if we don't agree on the words of Jesus, we might as well give up going back and forth.
Please go ahead and answer these questions.

Jesus is the rock of our salvation. He is also the rock of the church.

If you think that the Old Testament and the New Testament are the same, then continue there in. As I said before , I'm encouraging folk to obedience to the King.

The O.T. was about killing.
Jesus changed those laws, but if you are not willing to read and accept Matt 5, and Luke 6, along with the rest of the N.T. teaching, Continue in the law.

[laiddownhislife]

[quote=MCoving;58833]

Jesus did say that, but that is referring to certain examples. That you dont go seeking revenge on a neighbor just because they wronged you. Eccelsiastes says it very well there is a time for love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. War is okay to God, He decreed many wars before He can do that again, and has. We dont just sit on our butts and do nothing when an enemy wages war on us and kills our people. We must take up the sword and protect ourselves. Just like the prophets did and were commended for their efforts in Hebrews for their faith, etc. No where does Jesus say "there shall be no war". Can you find that exact saying? I dont think so.. you find verses like love your enemies, and eye for and eye saying but that doesn't say anything about war. You are implying that Jesus meant war as well, but he could just meant everyday life.. like if someone steals from you dont go and kill them. He talks about the cloak and slapping ones face in those verses.. not about killing and war.

TopLady, please note. Jesus does not say ;"there shall be no war", but He does tell us how to love!

Are you interested in this love?
Have you read other N.T. verses on love, or only the ones I have quoted?
There are many more, and they are precious, please take time to read those before you so quickly post pro war stuff.

[laiddownhislife]

[quote=MCoving;58833]

Jesus did say that, but that is referring to certain examples. That you dont go seeking revenge on a neighbor just because they wronged you. Eccelsiastes says it very well there is a time for love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. War is okay to God, He decreed many wars before He can do that again, and has. We dont just sit on our butts and do nothing when an enemy wages war on us and kills our people. We must take up the sword and protect ourselves. Just like the prophets did and were commended for their efforts in Hebrews for their faith, etc. No where does Jesus say "there shall be no war". Can you find that exact saying? I dont think so.. you find verses like love your enemies, and eye for and eye saying but that doesn't say anything about war. You are implying that Jesus meant war as well, but he could just meant everyday life.. like if someone steals from you dont go and kill them. He talks about the cloak and slapping ones face in those verses.. not about killing and war.

What I notice is that an army/platoon is made up of individuals that have a choice to say yes I will go and fight, or no I will take no physical weapon, but the word of God.This is a situation of everyday life for many of the forces in Iraq.

We need to encourage our son,s daughters/cousins/uncles/aunts etc, not to take up arms, but to take up the gospel

Let's not pretend that a soldier fighting in Iraq is fighting against his/her friend.Are they not fighting their enemy?

By Jesus saying love, He is saying no to war!
If you disagree, show me any New Testament verse that contradict His command of love, and that says we should go about killing and maiming anyone, guilty or innocent.