According to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel.
Re: Jesus says no to war.
Gav,
This will absolutely be my last post on this subject, honest, I do not want to argue this because it is one of those things that each individuals needs to work out with the Lord Himself, and not inflict his/her convictions on others about, me included....
I have no right to say "You, Gav, must pick up a gun and become a police officer, or soldier..." anymore than you have a right to tell others "You shouldn't be a soldier, or police officer....or butcher of animals..." (if you happen to be a vegan...lol)...this is one of those "do as your conscience directs" kind of things...anyway, take care...
Dead faith is only possible if you are not ALIVE in Christ!
“Do as you are bid; feed the sheep, feed the lambs; the goats will never believe the gospel,
though they may believe your doctrine.”
William Huntington
Augustus Toplady (1740-1778) was John Wesley's chief opponent
Whether it is Old Testament commands or New Testament commands, bondage to the law is bondage to the law. Grace put an end to bondage and frees the conscience to walk by faith and know that God is workng in us to will and to do of His good pleasure whether we are "serving" our enemies IN uniform or out.
Just my two cents on the latest posts.
**The command to love is given to each any every individual as a Christian,Originally Posted by Toplady
or tell me where we are told not to love?
The bible says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever! Hallelujah!!!! Praise be to His Name!!!!
Now, if Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, does that not naturally mean then, that the other members of the Triune Godhead are also the same, yesterday, today and forever! I believe that this is the ultimate conclusion that we have to come to.
So, if God sanctioned in the Old Testament to deal with people by force, who were not lining up with His will, should He not use the same ideas in the New Testament peiod as in the Old Testament?
I believe that it is Gods' will for Christians to go to war, if He calls them to do so.
I can't believe that pacifism is ever right, or else we would live in a world of complete anarchy. That is not right either, because we serve a God of order.
May the Lord help us all as we examine these things!
Blessings to you ALWAYS,
Kevin.
The problem with this thought taken to its logical conclusion, besides being wrong, would lead to some modern day application of Jewish Law for the NC believer. God himself in His attributes does ot change, yet His providential dealings with people certainly have and will.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.GALATIANS 5:22
Kevin: So, if God sanctioned in the Old Testament to deal with people by force, who were not lining up with His will, should He not use the same ideas in the New Testament peiod as in the Old Testament?
In general, Kevin, I agree with you! But it is very important to distinguish between the two kingdoms--the kingdom of this world (which is still under Christ's sovereignty) and the everlasting kingdom of Grace in Jesus Christ.
When Paul states that the state does not take up the sword in vain but according to the Lord's approval, in Rom. 13, he refers to what God has stated about His purposes among nations in the 'broad' sense. And certainly this was taught also in the Old Testament--God chooses kings or leaders of nations to punish other nations who are more evil than themselves.
However, it is definitely wrong to draw a parallel with Israel and America as so many interpreters are prone to do. The commandments of God in the history of the Hebrew theocracy are NOT an exact standard as to how nations attempting to maintain justice during the New Covenant era are to act! Yet the GENERAL principles of how nation is to relate to nation revealed in the Old Testament are certainly still indicative today of how God works to preserve the order of the current age in order to have the world a fit place for the gospel to be preserved and advanced!
As far as military assignments are concerned, each situation or war must be considered individually to determine whether the cause is just or unjust. If a Christian is convinced in his own mind that the cause is just according to the overall principles in scripture that God has revealed, he is doing right by participating. Of course, we can never expect that there will be full agreement between all gospel believers on what does and does not constitute just war in every possible situation.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
I dont continue in the law Jesus set us free from that and we are in grace. That has nothing to do with whether one should tell someone not to take up the sword and fight for their life or not, whether its going against Gods command. Honestly, I feel you're kinda like one of those hippies.. lets all just get along and love each other, if we just love one another no one will hurt us everything will be ok. That's so not true... that's just being blind. Are you going to sit by and let some murderer chop your kid to pieces in front of you?! Or are you going to take up the sword and fight?! Oh be careful because from what you are saying Jesus says no to war.. you cant find that murderer who in front of you is killing your kids and family..
People who go to war are there because they believe in protecting us.. protecting you even! I hope you get that soldier though that says no Im not going to fight for her with the sword I'll just let the enemy come and kill her. It's like that story about how God sent all these things to rescue someone on the roof, but they didn't take it because they were praying for God to rescue them Himself. Yet he dies and goes to Heaven and God asks why didn't you get on the boat I sent to rescue you?
There's nothing in Gods Word that says war is evil... yes we are to love I dont disagree with that, yes we are to love our enemies.. I dont disagree with that. But if someone is trying to take my life or my families Im not just going to reason with them as their pointing a gun at my head.. or threatening my safety living in this country.. Im going to fight back. And that is exactly what you see in the Old Testament.. and Im sure it was happening in the new as well it just wasn't recorded as much.. because that wasn't the focus of those books.. but just because we are no longer under the law doesn't make all the OT void. God did those things.. and He can very well do them and command His faithful followers to do the same today.. and he would be proud of them just like he was of the prophets listed in Hebrews. So you can have your lil lets fight with grace and love etc.. Im going to fight with weapons if my life or others are threatened..
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
One of the biggest issues that confuse me is when believer wars against believer. I do not know if this coud ever be just. Food for thought
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.GALATIANS 5:22
Does this in fact ever happen (in the context of war)?
Revoltionary war
civil war
the wars in europe england vs ireland.
each thought they had God on their side. like i said, just some food for thought
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.GALATIANS 5:22
Re: Jesus says no to war.
I'm still watching the conversations on this thread, don't think I'm really able to contribute anything else that I haven't already said....but.....I do have a question, because this topic seems to be mixing spiritual things the Lord Jesus taught us, with temporal things that have to do with occupations, we can have any occupation, even president of the USA (although especially these times, I doubt a true person that is elect and regenerate would get elected to be the prez....I'm waiting to see the antichrist revealed)
The mortal lives of us all is not the important factor in this argument, and I see too much value placed on flesh rather than the true life of the Spirit, which can be lived whatever the occupation....
Hoping for more clarification on this...I was thinking maybe I should start another thread since I said I wasn't going to post on this one anymore....(just didn't want a certain poster to think I was trying to be argumentative
)
Dead faith is only possible if you are not ALIVE in Christ!
“Do as you are bid; feed the sheep, feed the lambs; the goats will never believe the gospel,
though they may believe your doctrine.”
William Huntington
Augustus Toplady (1740-1778) was John Wesley's chief opponent
War was an Old covenant command. Jesus changed this command;
Matt5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
.Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Is the Christian loving his brother by fighting a war against him? No.
How did Jesus love us?1 Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Did He lay down His life in a war? No.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.
Whatever most of you are saying, this word from Rom 13 is as clear as all the others.
A CHRISTIAN CANNOT INJURE ANOTHER AND SAY THEY ARE DOING SO IN THE NAME OF CHRIST. CHRIST COMMANDS US TO LOVE.[see Rom 13:8].
Anyone who disobeys will be held accountable.
This is the foolishness of the gospel.
War is a COMPLETE lack of faith in God's ability to sort out HIS world. If you think you can do better than God by going to war, then you are a fool.
1 Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
2Tim2:
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
2 Cor 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
According to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel.
It seems like Christs gospel is ignored by many!
Laiddownhislife,
It is great that you have the conviction that you have, and may God Bless you for it.
However, where do we specifically see Jesus speaking out against war?
Where specifically? Are you really sure that you are not presuming on the Word of God?
There are scriptures that affirm war in the Old Testament, but there is nothing specifically addressing this issue in the New Testament.
The bible does not contradict itself, ever.
I don't equate "thinking God is on our side" with being elect--even the Islamists think God is on their side,eh?
This would depend upon how one defines the term "brother."
Well, yes; He laid down His life in a Spiritual war in order to win it on behalf of His own.
Are you saying one should not protect one's neighbors when other neighbors wish to do them harm? Why should we show preference to one neighbor over another and how should we determine which neighbor we should show preference to?
Christ says the greatest love is the laying down of one's life for one's friends,eh?
Christ died for such as these.
So, on the other hand, do you think one can do better than God by being a missionary? Aren't missionaries showing a complete lack of faith in God's ability to sort out His world? God uses means to spread the true gospel and God uses means to keep the peace (you still haven't answered the post with the verse where Christ tells his disciples to sell what they have and buy swords,eh)--or do you not believe that God ordains all things according to His purpose for the good of the elect (even war--and those that fight them)? Again, which neighbors get shown preference?
There is a difference between the spiritual and the carnal and between nations and individuals. If one "neighbor" attacks another (especially a defenseless one), it is not possible to live peaceably with all men, is it?1 Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
2Tim2:
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
2 Cor 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
(BTW; Paul reasoned at length with the Jews and Gentiles of his day; I would have loved to hear those arguments back and forth!)
Last edited by rlhuckle; 07-25-2008 at 08:00 AM.
laiddownhislife: War was an Old covenant command.
So are you saying that Abraham sinned when he organized a retaliatory war against the northern kings in Genesis 14 and celebrated victory with Melchizedek? That was long before the Old Covenant was cut at Sinai (and even before the covenant of circumcision in Gen. 17)!
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Re: Jesus says no to war.
That is exactly the point I tried (unsuccessfully
Dead faith is only possible if you are not ALIVE in Christ!
“Do as you are bid; feed the sheep, feed the lambs; the goats will never believe the gospel,
though they may believe your doctrine.”
William Huntington
Augustus Toplady (1740-1778) was John Wesley's chief opponent
I made the point on page1 that Jesus changed the law Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Those who lived under the O.T. law were under a different covenant as describe very in Matt 5, and the rest of the N.T.
So far I have not found this particular form of grace in the O.T. But perhaps someone else has?
We are all judged by what is revealed to us.
Lk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Perhaps someone else can fill us in on this, I have mainly studied the N.T. and the New Covenant of grace, so there are some characters in the O.T. that I have studied little.
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