Jesus says no to war.

[MCoving]

Ok, it seems like folk are becoming overwhelmed in here.
Some people are struggling to answer 7 questions like adults, answering questions with
" Context, context, context.' and "whatever" and;" This is a stupid question". for example.
And such answers coming from a Co Administrator, elected to that post I guess, well maybe it's time to have a new election, for it seems to me that such behavior is not at all seasoned with grace.

Let's just start with one question for you pro war folk, and we can go from there .

Are you choosing to ignore that Jesus changed;
Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.?

I will diminish the questions for now to just one, and we can go from there.

If you answer this question, then I will debate further with you.

Please realize that those like myself who are not paying members have to wait a number of hours in order to read your posts. posts 74-77 are unreadable to me right now.

Hmm I had a lot of things to say but now rethinking it Im going to delete what I had. I just wanna say that my fellow friends on here answered your questions and I agree with them so I dont really need to restate their answers as my own. Also, we're not going to see eye to eye on this so Im letting it go.. I just ask you to really think this through and think about if you were held at gunpoint would you fight your enemy or would you just tell them you love them? Just a thought to think about... and I will always believe that those fighting wars who are elect are there by Gods Will and they are doing nothing wrong, and in no way should they repent for their actions. I am glad they are defending my freedom and life.. that I dont have to be scared of terrorists at night crashing a plane into my house, school, work, or mall, etc. They have done their job, just like those in the Bible did defending themselves. Its not about murdering people but about defending.. when your life is threatened you fight back. Obviouslly murder is wrong, but war is not.. and there is not one verse in the Bible that tells me it is.. your love your enemies verse doesn't tell me war is a sin. Plain and simple. Thanks for this discussion I Hope someday your views change, I'll be praying they do.. we dont need people going around telling our soldiers that they are wrong to fight and should repent.

[Brandan Kraft]

I was once swayed toward pacifist philosophy. I didn't stay in that camp long. I started thinking about which was worse - doing nothing and letting someone kill my family, or doing something and killing the bad guy. I couldn't live with myself if someone killed my loved ones and I did nothing to stop it. I would see myself as their murderer. I thought about that for a while... Killing a bad guy in self defense or defense of your loved ones is an honorable thing. It is the RIGHT thing to do if it keeps you from being a murderer.

[laiddownhislife]

Because of the hardness of most of your hearts, it seems as if we won't solve this issue this side of the line, and by His grace and His glory, He will I'm sure show who was gracious and loving and who wasn't.

For the time being, I feel I need to wipe my feet…

If Christ's words do not move your heart, then perhaps something else will.

Till next time.

Love and grace and peace to you all

[Toplady]

Gav...Do you equate suffering and death by war as equal to being "unloving" or unkind?....God punishes those whom He loves, how do you reconcile that?

Golly, I was hoping to get an answer for this(from bottom of page one of this thread), guess it'll have to wait until we see Jesus on the other side...

I do not take a hard and fast stand on it either way, I understand the wisdom of Ecclesiastes, sometimes there's a time to "put away the sword" and sometimes there is a time to resist what the enemy (not the flesh and blood one, but the powers behind it)is doing.... with force that may lead to death, either my own or an aggressor against me...and either way, it isn't because the Lord is unloving, but because God truly does hate evil in all of it's forms, and He is the One who will determine the final outcomes of all that happens to us.

BTW, Romans 8:28 is STILL in the Bible How could even war benefit believers???? Well, the Lord did say ALL THINGS, so I guess the argument rests with Him

[rlhuckle]

Because of the hardness of most of your hearts, it seems as if we won't solve this issue this side of the line, and by His grace and His glory, He will I'm sure show who was gracious and loving and who wasn't.

Well, from where I'm sitting--since we answered your questions and offered some scriptural reasons--I don't believe the hardness is on us.

For the time being, I feel I need to wipe my feet…

I'm not really all that surprised. Come back and visit sometime if the Spirit moves.

If Christ's words do not move your heart, then perhaps something else will.

Likewise, I'm sure.

Till next time.

Love and grace and peace to you all

May you grow in the grace and truth that is in Jesus Christ our Lord.

[laiddownhislife]

My question below remains unanswered.
Are you choosing to ignore that Jesus changed; Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.?

You pro war folk have choosen to ignore what Jesus has said.
Read Matt 5:38 to the end. He says, but now I say unto you...
Are you gonna tell me that an eye for an eye still stands???

Answer me truthfully, and don't try and stand behind silly little masks like maturity or being elect.

[The Hawker]

Christianity is a faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The bible says (if you use a King James bible) "Don't be angry without a cause". Some "versions" drop the part "without a cause" in that verse. so that some folks will think that being angry at all is a sin, when it is emphatically not.

The most dangerous kind of exegesis is the kind that takes one scripture verse, and starts a campaign on one verse (and not even a full verse at that!!). It is absolutely ridiculous to do such things, when the bible tells us to "rightly" divide the word of truth.

It has been said that the question on this thread has not been answered. How many times has it been answered? Loads of times. A careful study of this thread will reveal this. It is only that the answers have been rejected.

[marcuslid]

My question below remains unanswered.
Are you choosing to ignore that Jesus changed; Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.?

You pro war folk have choosen to ignore what Jesus has said.
Read Matt 5:38 to the end. He says, but now I say unto you...
Are you gonna tell me that an eye for an eye still stands???

Answer me truthfully, and don't try and stand behind silly little masks like maturity or being elect.

The Lord Jesus is talking about personal vergence (retaliation); it's easy to take things out of content if someone stands on one verse. If that is the case, then every FALSE religion is correct, BUT that is not the case. You need to take the WHOLE counsel of God(the whole Bible)

Here's a verse to consider
Revelation 19:11
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

[Toplady]

....and don't try and stand behind silly little masks like maturity or being elect.

I found this remark in very bad taste....what are you trying to say against the elect here? If we are the elect, we stand ON the promises of God, and are clothed with His righteousness. This seems to imply if we are not in agreement with you, we are faking or wearing some false mask....???

[Robert R. Higby]

Amen Susan and thanks to all for your insights!

The legal situation in Western nations is far different than in Jerusalem back then. The most contemporary equivalent to disobeying Christ's command re:turn the other cheek in our present 'world' that I can think of would be something like this: attempting to take revenge on someone with a lawsuit that might potentially win legally--but clearly exposes the plaintiff as a greedy and self-gratifying impostor when it comes to practicing the implications of the gospel!

[MCoving]

My question below remains unanswered.
Are you choosing to ignore that Jesus changed; Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.?

You pro war folk have choosen to ignore what Jesus has said.
Read Matt 5:38 to the end. He says, but now I say unto you...
Are you gonna tell me that an eye for an eye still stands???

Answer me truthfully, and don't try and stand behind silly little masks like maturity or being elect.

No it was answered many times, even by myself! The answer is NO we are not choosing to ignore what Jesus said!!! We just dont believe that the way you are interpreting His words is correct, that eye for an eye thing doesn't say anything about war! Where's the word war in it?! I think you are choosing to ignore the rest of the context of that passage!? So its not us that is ignoring Jesus words I think its you, I think you need to evaluate your understanding of that passage as a WHOLE and not in PART. No where in that passage is Jesus saying no to war, I disagree with your understanding of Jesus' words and eye for an eye. We are not to murder but God surely endorses war, you can see that throughout the old testament. And eye for an eye is talking about murdering, revenge.. it is not talking about war. So in other words your understanding of that passage is wrong.

[Toplady]

True, Mary.

Jesus used things that we know, the temporal (of this world) things that we could understand, to explain things that are infinitely more complex, deeper, and far-reaching, than our limited understanding can grasp. We see through a glass darkly, and the things of this world are all temporary. That does not mean that we should be careless about what we do, because of the misuse of "once saved always saved"....although the maxim is true, it is abused, remember, the devil is crafty and mistreats what is true, to make it a mockery.

You cannot broadbrush what Jesus said to apply (and/or misapply) it to the things of this world. Yes, all of what Jesus said does have application to the way we conduct our lives, but not always the way we think it should.... remember, to Jesus who sees long-term, our temporary lives are not as important as the eternal things of God. Again, that does not imply that we abuse others, or kill them for arbitrary reasons. It does mean that Jesus understood there would always be wars and rumours of wars in this world, it goes with this territory, and the dividing lines do get drawn here, including the fact that some (many?) will get killed in wars. Does that mean Jesus will lose His own that lose their temporal lives in battle? Of course not!!!! So why would a believer be concerned about those who may lose their lives in a temporal, of this world, war? We are not worried about our temporary lives, but are to live, fight, and die, faithful to the principles in which the Lord has put it into our hearts to stand strong on.

Who are you to judge in what way that will be accomplished best by each individual other than yourself? And we can each ask ourselves that question, as we are reminded of the Pharisees and their error

[laiddownhislife]

Ok, please copy and paste where it my question regarding why you believe that Jesus has not changed an eye for an eye.

I believe that Jesus has anulled the law of an eye for an eye, according what He taught in Matt 5:38,39.That why war is not for the followers of Jesus!

If you say you disagree, then do you believe an eye for an eye still needs to be in operation today.

If you believe that war is an action Christ's followers need to engage in then you are opposing what He taught in many places in the New Testament.

[marcuslid]

Ok, please copy and paste where it my question regarding why you believe that Jesus has not changed an eye for an eye.

I believe that Jesus has anulled the law of an eye for an eye, according what He taught in Matt 5:38,39.That why war is not for the followers of Jesus!

If you say you disagree, then do you believe an eye for an eye still needs to be in operation today.

If you believe that war is an action Christ's followers need to engage in then you are opposing what He taught in many places in the New Testament.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
The Jesus is talking about personal vengence here, not anything else.

[Highlyfavored]

Because of the hardness of most of your hearts,

I guess this would be equal to calling us fools.

...it seems as if we won't solve this issue this side of the line, and by His grace and His glory, He will I'm sure show who was gracious and loving and who wasn't.

For the time being, I feel I need to wipe my feet…

And, I guess this is where you think we are good for nothing.

If Christ's words do not move your heart, then perhaps something else will.

Till next time.

Love and grace and peace to you all

Thanks, I can tell this was really heartfelt.

If you believe that war is an action Christ's followers need to engage in then you are opposing what He taught in many places in the New Testament.

Because of your legalism I think it's you who opposes the gospel.

What was that about a fiery hell again? Oh yeah now I remember:

Mt 5:22, (NASB), "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

[MCoving]

Ok, please copy and paste where it my question regarding why you believe that Jesus has not changed an eye for an eye.

I believe that Jesus has anulled the law of an eye for an eye, according what He taught in Matt 5:38,39.That why war is not for the followers of Jesus!

If you say you disagree, then do you believe an eye for an eye still needs to be in operation today.

If you believe that war is an action Christ's followers need to engage in then you are opposing what He taught in many places in the New Testament.

You know I think your question has been answered numerous times in this thread, you keep asking the same thing and we keep answering the same way. We are not going to believe like you when it comes to the way you interpret that passage, and your thoughts about Jesus saying no to war. SO... get over it!! Move on... why not study more on the Gospel of Christ, and what election means, Gods sovereignty.. something other than this that has be rehashed here. Theres nothing new I can add.. I believe eye for an eye is talking about revenge not war. War is something that happens when one country defends itself from another who is trying to take their life. Revenge is nothing like that.

[laiddownhislife]

Interesting that no one can paste the answer to the question I posed in post 93.
It remains obvious to me that this question has in fact not being answered,if it has then please post it.

The New Testament teaches:

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor

There is not a New Testament for a time of war, and another for a time of peace.
If you encourage to do ill to neighbors, you disobey the teaching of the New Testament.

If you believe ;”An eye for an eye” still needs to be obeyed , you go against what Jesus expressed in Matt 5.

[rlhuckle]

Go back and read post #75; this horse is dead.

[Brandan Kraft]

Interesting that no one can paste the answer to the question I posed in post 93.
It remains obvious to me that this question has in fact not being answered,if it has then please post it.

The New Testament teaches:

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor

There is not a New Testament for a time of war, and another for a time of peace.
If you encourage to do ill to neighbors, you disobey the teaching of the New Testament.

If you believe ;”An eye for an eye” still needs to be obeyed , you go against what Jesus expressed in Matt 5.

[marcuslid]

Go back and read post #75; this horse is dead.

Doesn't this kind of remind you of CARM? I answered your question, no you didn't, ect......