Let's have a discussion of President Lincoln's most famous Fool Quote (he had many) in light of current events. Was Lincoln correct? Did he fail to take into account the depraved nature of man? And so forth.
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
I don't think Lincoln intended for it to be taken absolutley but sort of as a proverb and specifically related to politics. If we go down the absolute road then then it is false because Christ is never fooled.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
I agree that Lincoln did not have Christ in mind. What I'm trying to discuss here is the significance and applicability of the proverb to the times in which we live (when interpreted in a 'general' sense).
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
I think Lincoln's saying is generally true although I would add to it that most of the people seem to be fooled most of the time. On an unrelated note, I came across this: http://norvig.com/Gettysburg/ It's what the Gettysburg Address would look like if Lincoln used PowerPoint (oh, how I hate Powerpoint!)
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
In light of this, how likely is the fall of the Republic and the separation of powers? Because of Lincon's estimate that all of the people cannot be fooled all of the time, the implication is that if evil in government ascends sufficiently enough to come close to an utter destruction of the essentials of consitutional liberty--there will be a reaction of the people and it will be successfully stopped.
What PRACTICAL scenario can anyone imagine that would prevent the stoppage of an overthrow of separation of powers and the most basic rights in the constitution, other than a successful foreign invasion? Please do not answer in terms of personalities but in terms of the circumstances that would remove ALL effective checks and balances.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Fall of the republic scenario? Here are my thoughts...Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
1) Obama is elected.
2) Supreme court nominees are confirmed that care nothing about the constitution.
3) Homosexual marriage becomes the law of the land.
4) Laws are enacted against speaking out against homosexuality.
5) Homeschooling is deemed illegal as are all private schools that teach against homosexuality.
6) Middle class wage earners are saddled with higher and higher taxes.
7) Eventually economy falls apart due to economic drain on wage earners.
8) A crisis is manufactured requiring marshall law to be enacted.
9) Obama stays president for life.
10) To remedy situation, labor camps are enacted. A civilian army draft is implmented.
11) Stalin like principles under permanent marshall law are implemented and people who don't abide by the rules are shot.
12) Any states that resist or try to secede will be conquered and held captive.
13) Eventually the iron grip on the states is lost and the republic falls apart in ruins. Many lives are lost, good public morals are a foreign concept, and a thousand years of darkness falls on the land. Many generations pass before freedom is tasted once again by our descendants.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
Follow me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/kraftb
Follow Predestinarian Network on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/predestinarian
Follow Predestinarian Network on Twitter: http://twitter.com/predestinarian
So you do not believe that the original constitution contains enough checks and balances that, coupled with the restraining power of God, can prevent any of this from happening? If that is so, it is not really superior to the attempts in former generations at forming a successful republic.
NOTE: In no way am I saying that if God is DETERMINED in His absolute WRATH on America to cause the scenario mentioned--that it could not happen, in spite of the constitution. But if God's wrath in the present age has boiled to that point--if His elect are so small in number and conviction that we face the same situation as Sodom and Gomorrah, it would truly indicate--as Jeremiah Wright the Marxist said--that we should call on God to damn America and that America's chickens have come home to roost.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Correct - it didn't contain a glossary. After observing the successful destruction of the meaning of the text over the years, it is my conclusion that corrupt judges will be able to "read" anything into the text they desire! The USA is still young, and in my opinion will not survive as a constitutional republic.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
Follow me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/kraftb
Follow Predestinarian Network on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/predestinarian
Follow Predestinarian Network on Twitter: http://twitter.com/predestinarian
Aside from this election, which I am DETERMINED to comment on no more (though I agree with you that Obama is a true Marxist who WANTS and PLANS all that you describe, if only the Lord would LET him), the issue I need an answer on is whether we should pray for God's final historical judgment to be poured out on an America. If it has filled up the cup of God's wrath like Sodom and Gomorrah (and many other nations) did, then we should pray for and anticipate the things you describe. Otherwise, we should pray for and expect that the things you describe do not happen (REGARDLESS of who wins ANY election).
I do not believe the answer of 'we just can't know' is justifiable in this regard. The elect of God have more discernment in the Holy Spirit than that.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
As far as I'm concerned about the mess were in as a nation, I pray that the Lord would come NOW and destroy this world with the brightness of His coming. However the only reason a "stay of execution" would be in order and considered, would be only till the last sheep is brought into the fold.
What other reason would I want to stay in this carnal world of sin and my own sinful fleshly nature. Would not all of God's elect rather be in the New Heaven and Earth in the presence of our Lord and without sin for ever-more?
What true christian is there that would want to live here on this fallen planet then be with Christ?
And he said , Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
St. Nicholas: What other reason would I want to stay in this carnal world of sin and my own sinful fleshly nature. Would not all of God's elect rather be in the New Heaven and Earth in the presence of our Lord and without sin for ever-more?
Amen! Come quickly Lord Jesus!
Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
Uh oh...I going to say it, we just cant know.(LOL.. teasin a bit) Honestly though how can we know for sure that we should be praying for the wrath of God to fall on America like it did with Sodom and Gomorrah? How do we know that for any nation? I do believe we have discernment in the Holy Spirit I just dont know that we have that much. You really think we do??
What would be the deciding factors? Can we learn what they are from Gods Word because thats the only reliable source we have to decide such a thing, I wouldn't go for myself as the source because I dont know... maybe, maybe not. So Im interested in hearing what from Gods Word could lead us to think that its now time to pray for Gods judgement on America like Sodom and Gomorrah.
Also why must we pray that? I mean I normally just pray that Gods Will be done on earth, so that if its His Will to come destroy America, or this world, to bring final judgement than it is. No one will know the time of Christs return, I think no one will know the time of America's destruction.. I cant look ahead and be like oh its going to be in the next 5 years. It could be in the next 500 years. Our timing may be different than Gods I may look at all thats going on now and say yeah, America is like Sodom and Gommorah... it should be destroyed, we should pray for Gods wrath. And yet God may be thinking um no... thats not happening for another 100 years.
Thats just my initial thought.. but I can be persuaded to think differently. I really am interested in learning what else you have to say on this.
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
A recent Rasmussen poll showed that something like 56% (or was it 59%? I don't remember) of people believe that government is the cause of most of our problems so I don't think everybody is being fooled. I do think that most people are uninformed and many have grown uninterested with all the nonsense from both parties. I do think people have to get out of the Republican/Democrat mindset. I really think that on many issues most Americans agree with guys like Ron Paul but they can't seem to break through the media barrier. I don't think revolution is going to occur but if it does you won't find me there.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
In the most recent edition of the The American Conservative there was a roundtable discussion on who various political commentators that categorize themselves as paleoconservatives would vote. Answers given varied from Obama, McCain, Barr, Baldwin, write in vote for Ron Paul, and not voting at all. I thought one of the articles was particularly interesting:
Joseph Sobran PDF
</I>
During the so-called presidential debates, I failed to hear a single mention of the U.S. Constitution, which should have been the chief subject. What are the proper powers of government, of the federal government, and of the president? These questions don’t even come up anymore. The debaters wrangle heatedly about “the economy”—a phrase that never appears in the text of the Constitution but preoccupies today’s pundits and politicians.
Neither of the major-party presidential candidates, let alone President Bush, could have held an intelligent conversation with Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, or John Jay, the authors of The Federalist, our best known commentary on that Constitution. I happen to think that time has proved abundantly that their opponents, the “anti-Federalists,” were profoundly right in their fears of where adoption of the Constitution—a grievous act of centralization—would lead: to say no more about it, to a gigantic war between the states, to two world wars, and to the endless usurpation of power implicit in all yakking about “the economy.”
Constitution Party nominee Chuck Baldwin can no more undo this sorry history than he can reverse the direction of the globe’s axial rotation. (I believe in miracles, but I don’t expect them in politics.) And he and I might well disagree on the authority of the Constitution itself. But he is a godly, reasonable, wise, and intelligent man—as worthy a candidate as I ever expect to see. He knows what the Tenth Amendment means; he understands the crucial 45th number of The Federalist, which reminds us that the powers delegated to the federal government are “few and defined,” whereas those remaining with the states are “numerous and indefinite.” Furthermore, he knows what the Holy Scriptures mean when they speak of a woman being “with child”; and no amount of pseudoconstitutional gobbledygook about “choice” or “privacy” can shake him on this point. His horror at legal abortion is still fresh.
I’ve been reading Chuck Baldwin’s essays for several years. My first reaction to them was to wish we had rulers who could read him, grasp what he was saying, and take it to heart. I never dreamed I would have the chance to vote for him myself. Joseph Sobran is a columnist and former senior editor of National Review.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
I believe the U.S. Constitution has been weakened over the years and quite a bit recently.
Military Commissions Act 2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act
U.S. Patriot Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_act
Presidential executive orders http://www.libertyforlife.com/consti...ive_orders.htm
Also check out this website http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php..._United_States
and this one
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...ecutive_Orders
Pretty much everything is in place for martial law and suspension of the constitution. We just need the right national emergency. Maybe a terrorist attack or major natural disaster. Maybe if the economy tanks all the way they could declare martial law if riots start because banks are closed. Who knows.
The gospel is to be preached indiscriminately to the elect and to the reprobate: but the elect alone come to Christ, because they have been taught of God. - John Calvin
Forester07's Blog
WB,
To answer your question about why nobody is talking about the constitution--both the Marxists and the Monetarists (which include all neo-conservatives like McCain) deny critical aspects of the constitution and therefore don't want debate based on it. Monetarism denies even the slightest affirmation of Article I Section X, even views espousing the most innovative possible explanation of what it means to embrace gold and silver as the monetary standard.
Mary, right now I can only refer you to Abraham's 'argument' with God to support my position (Gen. 18:16-32)! There are many other fundamentals involved but I'm not going to discuss those until after the election.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
If the government continues to bail out private enterprise and becomes a major stockholder in enough companies to the point where a majority of Americans end up "working for" the government either directly or by proxy (including those on the dole), a totalitarian form of government WILL be the eventual result because a majority will not want their gravy train interrupted--talk about an abominable obamanation!
Print and spend.....while freezing wages and prices. Maybe if everybody is forced to work 10 hours a week for free (for "good" causes of course)-that might stave off the inevetible.....but I doubt it.
A practical scenario would be Total Depravity doing what Total Depravity does. The so called 'Right' is very diverse comprising educated and uneducated, young and old, Evangelical and Atheist. So there is no true safeguard against a drift towards the 'Left' save God's decree; in fact it has already begun. If we take into consideration history and we recognize sinful humanity's pattern of behavior as a valid sign of whats to come, then we know what is certain as the future unravels. Here is an excerpt from falconparty.com; it's the 6th principle in The Ten Conservative Principles article (which is Adapted from the Politics of Prudence):
Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectability.
Human nature suffers irremediably from certain grave faults, the conservatives know. Man being imperfect, no perfect social order ever can be created. Because of human restlessness, mankind would grow rebellious under any utopian domination, and would break out once more in violent discontent—or else expire of boredom. To seek for utopia is to end in disaster, the conservative says: we are not made for perfect things. All that we reasonably can expect is a tolerably ordered, just, and free society, in which some evils, maladjustments, and suffering will continue to lurk. By proper attention to prudent reform, we may preserve and improve this tolerable order. But if the old institutional and moral safeguards of a nation are neglected, then the anarchic impulse in humankind breaks loose: “the ceremony of innocence is drowned.” The ideologues who promise the perfection of man and society have converted a great part of the twentieth-century world into a terrestrial hell.
Of course this does not take into account particular doctrinal issues but as a general evaluation of humanity I think it's right on. If I'm 'prone to wander' from the things of God then I sure as heck am prone to wander from Conservative values and policy following the rest of the 'sheeple' off the cliff. So in other words I don't think anything will stop the fall of the U.S. I will fight like hell to stop it but I believe we are crumbling from the inside. It's like the movie Shawn of the Dead, we are surrounded zombies. Most Americans are in a trance and, yes, are fooled (more like blinded).
Last edited by Mickey; 11-26-2008 at 12:23 PM.
One more thing; If HR 1955 passes and Obama creates his Gestapo Civilian National Security Force; combine that with the Patriot Act and we are well on our way to destruction.
For those who aren't Familiar with HR 1955:Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Act of 2007
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...bill=h110-1955
This Bill is aimed at you and me. Is it any coincidence that they would be passing a bill such as this along with the Patriot Act? Seems like the perfect strategy if you want to stop the voice of the people. Consider the definitions section 899A:
(2) VIOLENT RADICALIZATION- The term `violent radicalization' means the process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system for the purpose of facilitating ideologically based violence to advance political, religious, or social change.
Hmmm...I wonder how they will apply this definition.
If you will notice in the above statement, it says"extremist belief system ". Extreme as compared to what? There is no definition as to what extreme means.
Also: "facilitating ideologically based violence" Now that is vague!
That statement can be construed to mean any ideology that disagrees with the Government. It does not say physical violence as to war, but rather ideological warfare. Kiss freedom of speech and conscience goodbye.
Would not our constitution which gives the citizenry the right to redress our government be considered an act to advance political change?
Great post Mike,
Nicholas
And he said , Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks