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Thread: Distributism

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    Distributism

    I've recently been studying what has been called the third way economic policy known as distributism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism

    I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on this. Those in the movement seem to make some good points. Here's an example of handling economic crisis from a distributist perspective:

    Don't Bail It--Rebuild It!


    There is certainly a great deal of anger over the bailouts, and particularly over the proposed bailout of the Big 3 automakers. Of course, the major problem is that they are no longer the “Big 3” worldwide, and even domestically. The public, or a large portion of it, perceives the management as arrogant and unresponsive, and the unions as lazy and overpaid. A bailout seems to violate the basic principle of capitalism. Further, it is felt that a chapter 11 bankruptcy is not the end of the company, it is merely a reorganization which will allow the company to abrogate its labor contracts and drive down the labor costs to be more competitive with third world competition (where many of the parts are made). Many feel that even if the auto companies disappear, foreign auto plants in America would simply pick of the slack and there would be as many jobs as before.
    There is a partial truth in all of this, but as with all partial truths, they hide more than they reveal. Japan's American plants would probably not expand their production, they would simply import more cars. Honda and Toyota have assembly plants in America mainly for political purposes. And these plants help to keep factories in Japan open because they mainly assemble Japanese parts. There would be no need to expand their American production, since there would be no domestic competition to exert a political threat. Further, the profits from these plants are repatriated to Japan to help their economy, not outs. And it is somewhat odd to see people urging that the union contracts be violated, since this call generally comes from that political quarter which professes to believe in the sanctity of contract. And in any case, the situations between American producers and the Japanese are not comparable. The so-called “legacy” costs for health-care and retirement are socialized costs in Japan; they do not appear on the company's books, but are paid for by taxation. And despite the claims of a lazy workforce, the opposite is the truth; the American workers in general and the auto workers in particular are the most productive in the world.
    Finally, there is a great deal of doubt that people would buy a car from a company in Chapter 11, which means that an “11” would go quickly to a “7”; that is, into liquidation. Cars are not a momentary purchase, but involve a “life-of-the-car” relationship for parts, service, warranties, etc. So long as there are doubts about the future, there will be few sales in the present. This means that a large part of the already-shrinking industrial base of America would simply vanish.
    Policy makers are thus faced with an almost impossible choice: they must either bail out “private” business, or they must witness the significant and near-fatal contraction of America's ability to make things. The problem is that only by making things can a country hope to be prosperous, and no reasonable person believes that there is any industry capable of replacing the auto industry. Of these two choices, no principled policy maker will want to do the first, and no responsible policy maker can afford to do the second. So what are they to do?
    Let me suggest that this presents a great opportunity for a new model of industrial organization in America. A radical model, to be sure, but nevertheless a working model, and one that has shown itself to be highly successful over a long period of time. I am speaking of the model used by Europe's largest supplier of automotive parts, the Mondragón Cooperative Corporation. We would thus replicate a tested model and bring new opportunities to rebuild America's industries.
    The biggest liability the automakers have is likely to their own employees in terms of pension obligations. Employees should be able to exchange these debts for ownership of the companies. They would become employee owned and operated, a model that has proven to have both social and competitive advantages. Competitively, employee-owned companies often prove to be more productive, more agile, more creative than their corporate competitors. Socially, the Mondragón corporation has been able to run its own social safety-net programs, its own banks, its own school system, its own R&D, training institutes, retirement programs, and even its own university all without government support. If one is looking for a true libertarian model, one that actually works, and has worked for 50 years, than look to the Basques of Spain for your model.
    The devil, of course, is in the details. I think it would be a mistake simply to continue the current organization and merely replace the owners. One of the problems is that the industry, with only three companies, is “too big to fail,” and can thus hold the economy hostage, as they are doing. And bigness works against the cooperative spirit. In Mondragón, they get around this by organizing the corporation as 250+ individual cooperatives, each with its own product line, management, books, etc. The individual worker does not get swamped by the sheer size of the overall corporation (close to 90,000 worker-owners). Scale is as important a factor in industrial organization as anything else. The vertically integrated car companies are in fact dinosaurs. The new companies could be organized as final assembly and distribution companies, engine companies, transmission companies, finance agencies, etc., each with their own products and research.
    A reorganization along these lines would allow a rethinking of American industrial practice. For example, companies could be encouraged to use standard parts, thereby lowering the cost of maintenance. No longer would you pay an exorbitant amount for a bolt that is only used by one company and carries a monopoly price. Assembly plants could be dispersed throughout the country, placing them closer to the end markets and lowering costs.
    This plan would not reward current management for their mistakes, and would make America more competitive both domestically and globally. However, there is one group more than any other that is likely to oppose such a plan, and that is the UAW. When workers become owners, the need for a union evaporates, and they are left without a function. Union officials then have to go back on the line to make a living, one with far fewer perks than they now enjoy. This is not to disparage the idea of unions; workers need to be represented in bargaining. However, unions, whatever other virtues they may have, institutionalize an opposition between capital and labor. But as John Paul II noted, a labor system is just precisely to the degree it overcomes this opposition.
    Sometimes a disaster is also an opportunity, and this is one of those times. We can bail out failure, or we can watch the nation's industrial capacity shrink to third-world levels, or we can use this as an opportunity to build a new American model of industrialization. True, it will be a model we borrowed from the Basques and from Emilia-Romagna (where 40% of GDP is from cooperatives, and enjoys one of the highest standards of living in Europe), but this only shows that we start with a working model, and adapt it to American needs. It would be a great shame if we let this opportunity pass.


    Posted by John Médaille at 11/19/2008 03:29:00 PM

    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Distributism

    NO BAILOUT - something will rise from the ashes of the big 3 as there will be a need for cars in this country.
    Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!

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    Re: Distributism

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    NO BAILOUT - something will rise from the ashes of the big 3 as there will be a need for cars in this country.
    The big 3 aren't the only source of cars. There are a lot of imports available and it seems that if a stable American automotive company does not exist nobody is going to want to buy new cars from them. Why would someone want to shell out the money for a new American car when the Japanese cars have proven to be so reliable and have a more secure warranty? The idea of an American automobile could disappear. Many of the parts for "American" cars are already made in Japan and assembled in Mexico. But the entire idea of the American car could go the way of the American computer, american made toys, or American made just about anything. We can't survive if we continue to export all of our wealth to other countries.

    But regardless of the bailout of the auto industry in particular, do you have any thoughts in regards to the idea of distributism as an alternative to both capitalism and communism?
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Distributism

    Toyota and Honda build most of their cars in this country and have more american made parts in them than the big 3 have in their vehicles. Most of the big 3's parts are made south of the border. We haven't had a true american made car for at least 20 years now.
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    Re: Distributism

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    But regardless of the bailout of the auto industry in particular, do you have any thoughts in regards to the idea of distributism as an alternative to both capitalism and communism?
    There is no good alternative to capitalism - the only alternative is slavery.
    Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!

    "Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.

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    Re: Distributism

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    There is no good alternative to capitalism - the only alternative is slavery.
    Why do you say that? It seems that the general problem with strict capitalism is that either quickly or slowly it eventually leads to socialism. As G.K. Chesterton said, "Too much capitalism does not mean too many capitalists, but too few capitalists."
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Distributism

    One issue that people are afraid to talk about is the ridiculous wages these assembly line people make. Total compensation equaling 75 bucks/hr is absurd. Full lifetime health benefits, 6k /month lifetime pension. The UAW must be silenced in this case. Start capping these blue collar workers pay scale and pay what the job is worth. I know for a fact it is not worth whatthey get paid. The burden rate for the big 3 has priced them out of business.
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    Re: Distributism

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah View Post
    One issue that people are afraid to talk about is the ridiculous wages these assembly line people make. Total compensation equaling 75 bucks/hr is absurd. Full lifetime health benefits, 6k /month lifetime pension. The UAW must be silenced in this case. Start capping these blue collar workers pay scale and pay what the job is worth. I know for a fact it is not worth whatthey get paid. The burden rate for the big 3 has priced them out of business.
    Joeeeeee, if you were one of these auto workers, do you think you would be whistling the same tune?
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    Re: Distributism

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah View Post
    One issue that people are afraid to talk about is the ridiculous wages these assembly line people make. Total compensation equaling 75 bucks/hr is absurd. Full lifetime health benefits, 6k /month lifetime pension. The UAW must be silenced in this case. Start capping these blue collar workers pay scale and pay what the job is worth. I know for a fact it is not worth whatthey get paid. The burden rate for the big 3 has priced them out of business.
    It is GM's fault - nobody forced them to overpay for these services. They simply sold their company's future for some short term relief in labor negotiations. Shame on them! There is no sympathy from me.
    Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!

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    Re: Distributism

    The price of capitalism is that poorly run business go under and that is the way it should be. Poorly run businesses that are bailed by the government becomes a burden on tax payers. LET THEM GO!!!
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    Re: Distributism

    Quote Originally Posted by lion of judah
    One issue that people are afraid to talk about is the ridiculous wages these assembly line people make. Total compensation equaling 75 bucks/hr is absurd. Full lifetime health benefits, 6k /month lifetime pension. The UAW must be silenced in this case. Start capping these blue collar workers pay scale and pay what the job is worth. I know for a fact it is not worth whatthey get paid. The burden rate for the big 3 has priced them out of business.
    There's all these people getting paid not to work as well. I agree it is ridiculous but its the danger you face in a system that promotes greed. For quite some time there were a lot of employers who worked the living daylights out of their employees and did not pay them a livable wage. If things continued down that road eventually I believe the workers would have eventually revolted and we would be living in a true communist nation. What happened instead was the formation of labor unions. Unionization ocurred in reaction to capitalist greed. Of course then greed developed on the part of the labor and an us and them attitude developed. Labor didn't care very much about the profitability of the company since in their minds that was really just giving money to management that they didn't deserve.

    I think this is where the distributist position makes a whole lot more sense. If you replace all the insane extra benefits and pensions with shares in the company then the assembly line worker has an immediate reason not to try to screw over the company since he owns it.

    But, the whole idea that the management of the auto industry would fly to DC in multi-million dollar private jets and ask for money without any real plan is just ridiculous. Sell the jets and all the fancy stuff and get to work.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Distributism

    Just a side note but I think this all stems from the main problem of people only voting and acting in their own self-interest. There's a guy at work that I have more serious political conversations with than anyone else and I consider him a friend. His wife is a public school teacher and he found it completely amazing that there were teachers in his wife's school that did not vote for Obama. Obama promised to raise the wages of public school teachers and my friend truly couldn't understand why anyone who was a public school teacher or married to one would not vote for Obama based on that fact alone. I'm not saying people would have been better off long term under McCain but I don't think most people when they went to vote on election day were voting for the good of their neighbor or even for the long-term good of the country. They're generally voting for what they will personally receive in the short-term. If people were thinking long-term there would be completely different candidates to vote for.

    Also the whole idea of self-sacrifice has been removed from the American mind. People really sacrificed during WWII. Overall I think Regan was a better president than Carter but Carter probably lost the election because he encouraged people to sacrifice. Regan laughed at the idea. When 9/11 happened, Bush did not encourage America to the kind of conservation and sacrifice that America did during WWII, he told everybody to do some patriotic spending. Obama came closest during the debates to telling people that sacrifice might be necessary but he never really got there and I can't imagine him encouraging such a horrid thing as self-sacrifice at least if he wants to get re-elected.

    With all this talk about the use of things like clean coal technology which is at least 10 years in the future and selling of carbon credits you would think that there might be a sensible person that would talk about doing something as simple as lowering the speed limit to 55 mph--you'd save a lot of gas and a lot of lives. But that would require just a little bit of sacrifice--we can't have that.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Distributism

    Some unionized U.S. factories (i.e., Caterpillar) have gone to a multi-tiered wage system, something that the labor unions have historically rejected. This move is essential for the survival of any company in the emerging world economy. If the U.S. auto companies and their unions do not eventually accept this type of wage system, they will cease to do business in this country.

    The distributive model is certainly a good one; I don't see it as a rejection of capitalism though (as long as it is not mandated by government force)--any more than a 'bare bones' amount of government 'safety net' benefits for citizens is a rejection of capitalism in general (though what some call 'pure capitalism' might be compromised by it). However, graduated income and property taxes are a true rejection of capitalism in favor of socialism, because these methods of taxation seize property that is already owned and distribute the proceeds to other benefactors.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

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    Re: Distributism

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    The distributive model is certainly a good one; I don't see it as a rejection of capitalism though (as long as it is not mandated by government force)
    Exactly my point. Thanks Bob.
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    Re: Distributism

    When I moved to Austin two years ago, Toyota was hiring for its new assembly plant in San Antonio. I believe the starting wage was around 12 bucks an hour plus bennies. Contrast that with the starting wage in Detroit and is it any wonder the US automakers are not competitive?

    I also think the distributive system is good--as long as it is not mandated. If the workers got stock in US auto companies and actually began to understand the economics, the unions would be unnecessary. There is nothing like ownership to make one aware of the bottom line.

    The next step is for all those who have a particular health insurance to buy those companies up and begin to dictate health insurance policy..... (or better yet--do away with the system altogether).
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    Re: Distributism

    I don't think any of the major distributist groups are revolutionaries. Most seem to advocate the process starting at the local and personal level. There are good reasons to buy locally from mom and pop stores and local farms rather than giving more money to the big box stores.

    However, when the auto companies come to Washington to ask for money, I do think that Washington should attach some strings to the money--if you want the money this, this, and this has to happen. I don't see any problem with asking for distributism in exchange for the money that being given out. The management of GM clearly has no real plan of their own to sustain themselves.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

  17. #17
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    Re: Distributism

    We live in a time when folks don't vote based on whats best for the country they vote for what suites themselves. Instead of voting on principle or conscience they are seduced by political sirens. I'm convinced that if Hitler were to run for office today all he would have to do is promise to give free rent and he would win office.

    Unfortunately a well thought out and logical plan will not pass in our current government. The public servant is extinct, all that exists is people who have obligations to pay back those who bought their office.

    I have so much more to write but I have to go for now. I just needed to make a few cynical comments. I'll contribute something with substance later if I get time.


  18. #18
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    Re: Distributism

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hughes View Post
    We live in a time when folks don't vote based on whats best for the country they vote for what suites themselves. Instead of voting on principle or conscience they are seduced by political sirens. I'm convinced that if Hitler were to run for office today all he would have to do is promise to give free rent and he would win office.

    Unfortunately a well thought out and logical plan will not pass in our current government. The public servant is extinct, all that exists is people who have obligations to pay back those who bought their office.

    I have so much more to write but I have to go for now. I just needed to make a few cynical comments. I'll contribute something with substance later if I get time.
    Very well spoken Michael. Hitler promised economic prosperity and the Volkswagon. The (artificial) economic prosperity was due primarily to excessive borrowing from some of the central banks in Europe, US financial institutions, and financial interests around the globe who favored the Fascist principle of government.

    The massive expansion of factories to manufacture the "War Machine), provided jobs for the German citizens. The people were working, earning money, and deluded with the propaganda that they were doing God's will in defeating the "manufactured" common enemy.

    Hyper inflation hit hard and the Deutchmark was worthless due to excessive printing of "fiat paper monopoly" money.

    Hey wait a minute??!! This sounds like our current US government and finacial situation.

    Nicholas
    And he said , Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65

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    Re: Distributism

    Since 1990 to 2008 UAW has contributed $24,334,459 to the Democratic party and $1,016,991 to the Republican party.

    I find it interesting that the Democrats are in bed with Environmentalists who push for the death of fossil fuels and the UAW who opposes fuel efficiency standards.

    Can you imagine what it must take to assure each of these groups you are looking out for their interests?


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    Re: Distributism

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    Joeeeeee, if you were one of these auto workers, do you think you would be whistling the same tune?
    Greggggg:

    Absolutely not. And that is why the UAW should be silenced on this matter. How could a person who guides a door in place, screws in 4 screws be worth 6 figures? Plus Detroit and Flint are 2 $h!tholes anyway. Let them become fisherman or something..lol
    Last edited by Highlyfavored; 11-23-2008 at 05:52 PM.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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