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Thread: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

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    The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Among those who hold to the Amillennial view of eschatology there is a difference of opinion about what the Apostle Paul meant by the Salvation of "All Israel" in Romans 11:26-27.

    Some have suggested that the "All Israel" is the regenerated, spiritual ELECT remnant among the PHYSICAL ISRAELITES.

    Others have suggested that the "All Israel" of Romans 11:26-27 is the ELECT of all generations without any reference to the ELECT among the Israelites according to the flesh.

    I am interested in obtaining a full and rigorous discussion of these issues and I am hoping for QUALITY posts that delineate the PRECISE meaning of "All Israel".

    May God bless all who participate in this discussion, Craig

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Craig, what is your position? Are you unsure? Or have you settled on a position and just need some clarification?
    Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Craig,

    Welcome back to the forum. Before we go down this road, would you please clearly spell out what it is you think - and from there we'll start our dialog.

    Greg
    Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill View Post
    Craig, what is your position? Are you unsure? Or have you settled on a position and just need some clarification?
    Hi Brandan,

    I am a settled, convinced Amillennialist in the area of eschatology. This position I have arrived at by "hard slog" over many years of interest and study in this area. There is absolutely no need for anyone to try and convince me of the correctness of the Amillennial system in the overall sense. I reject the dispensational view as being entirely inconsistent with the nature and inter-relatedness of the Old and New Covenants.

    However, within the Amillennial system of interpretation there is room for difference over the PRECISE meaning of "All Israel". This is where, at this time, I am unsettled and unsure. I have NOT settled on a position in this connection.

    I am open to be shown and taught the biblical position on this matter through rigorous exegesis and discussion. I know there are people on this forum with high ability who can get to the heart of this problem and present the truth.

    God bless, Craig

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    Craig,

    Welcome back to the forum. Before we go down this road, would you please clearly spell out what it is you think - and from there we'll start our dialog.

    Greg
    Hi Greg,

    Thanks for your welcome.

    As I have said to Brandan, I am a convinced and settled Amillennialist in the area of eschatology - unlike my soteriological position of which I have NOT, at this time, staked out any one detailed and precise form and of which I grope after the truth whatever that may be in its final form! LOL!

    I am a convinced Amillennialist because I believe that the Church is the NEW ISRAEL, or the new people of God living under the NEW COVENANT.

    Thus, there is no need for anyone to try to convince me of the correctness of the Amillennial schema.

    However, I am acutely aware that among New Testament scholars there are differing opinions regarding the PRECISE interpretation of Romans 11:25-27.

    I know that William Hendriksen and Anthony Hoekema argue that Paul uses the term ISRAEL throughout Romans 9-11, including 11:26, to refer to JEWS in distinction from the GENTILES. They, accordingly, understand ALL ISRAEL in 11:26 to refer to the totality of the ELECT AMONG ISRAEL (ie true Israelites from among the Jews, see 9:26) not to the entire Jewish nation.

    An alternative view to this is that "All Israel" is made up of everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord (10:13) - that is, the ELECT of the Jews and Gentiles, the "NEW ISRAEL"; see, in this connection Romans 4:11-12, 16; 9:24; Galatians 3:26-29; 6:15-16).

    It is between these two alternating views as outlined above that my mind is, presently, torn. Which view is right? Which interpretation should I adopt? Which view, most importantly, is the position of the inerrant scriptures? I have NOT, then, at this stage adopted a settled position on this problem. I am hoping that through this thread the Holy Spirit Himself will lead me to the truth on this matter.

    I look forward to a full and informed discussion of these controverted points.

    May God bless you, Craig

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    Thus, there is no need for anyone to try to convince me of the correctness of the Amillennial schema.

    However, I am acutely aware that among New Testament scholars there are differing opinions regarding the PRECISE interpretation of Romans 11:25-27.

    I know that William Hendriksen and Anthony Hoekema argue that Paul uses the term ISRAEL throughout Romans 9-11, including 11:26, to refer to JEWS in distinction from the GENTILES. They, accordingly, understand ALL ISRAEL in 11:26 to refer to the totality of the ELECT AMONG ISRAEL (ie true Israelites from among the Jews, see 9:26) not to the entire Jewish nation.

    An alternative view to this is that "All Israel" is made up of everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord (10:13) - that is, the ELECT of the Jews and Gentiles, the "NEW ISRAEL"; see, in this connection Romans 4:11-12, 16; 9:24; Galatians 3:26-29; 6:15-16).
    I don't think that the context will allow the 2nd option here. It's either literally all of the Jews or all of the elect Jews, mainly because there wasn't a covenant with elect gentiles.

    I believe it can only be the elect Jews for one main reason, the two seeds. Christ in John 8:44 sheds light--as it were--on the fact that some of those who are Jews are of their father the devil.

    Maybe that's too simple but that's how I like it.


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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hughes View Post
    I don't think that the context will allow the 2nd option here. It's either literally all of the Jews or all of the elect Jews, mainly because there wasn't a covenant with elect gentiles.

    I believe it can only be the elect Jews for one main reason, the two seeds. Christ in John 8:44 sheds light--as it were--on the fact that some of those who are Jews are of their father the devil.

    Maybe that's too simple but that's how I like it.
    Hi Michael,

    Could you please explain why you believe that there wasn't a covenant with elect gentiles?

    Even if one was to adopt the "Two Seed" position as advocated by Pnet - which, incidentally, I at present do not - I fail to see that John 8:44 rules out a covenant with elect gentiles. Does this make sense to you?

    I am genuinely interested to find out why you believe this. Can you please "unpack" your position further?

    Cheers, God bless Craig

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    Hi Michael,

    Could you please explain why you believe that there wasn't a covenant with elect gentiles?

    Even if one was to adopt the "Two Seed" position as advocated by Pnet - which, incidentally, I at present do not - I fail to see that John 8:44 rules out a covenant with elect gentiles. Does this make sense to you?

    I am genuinely interested to find out why you believe this. Can you please "unpack" your position further?

    Cheers, God bless Craig
    To my knowledge (which is sparse) I don't think gentiles have ever been referred to as 'Jacob' (Rom 11:26), let alone had a prior covenant made with them to where Paul would be referencing it.


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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hughes View Post
    To my knowledge (which is sparse) I don't think gentiles have ever been referred to as 'Jacob' (Rom 11:26), let alone had a prior covenant made with them to where Paul would be referencing it.
    Thanks Michael,

    Are you suggesting, then, that the gentiles were NOT IN VIEW when the NEW COVENANT was prophesied by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31:31-33?

    Do you consider that the gentiles are participants of the NEW COVENANT in any shape or form?

    Cheers, Craig

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    Thanks Michael,

    Are you suggesting, then, that the gentiles were NOT IN VIEW when the NEW COVENANT was prophesied by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31:31-33?

    Do you consider that the gentiles are participants of the NEW COVENANT in any shape or form?

    Cheers, Craig
    No, I'm suggesting exactly what I said in my last post. We are talking about Rom 11:25-27.


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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    I go back and forth on this issue and perhaps will probably continue to do so. Right now I'm sitting on the fence. But in reality I don't think it makes very much difference.

    I waffle between "all Israel" referring to believers who are part of Israel according to the flesh and both believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Other passages speak of the totality of both groups as Israel and perhaps that is what is going on here. Or maybe not. Perhaps he is speaking specifically of those who are of Israel according to the flesh.

    It's pretty clear that he is not saying that all Israel according the flesh will be saved and that's where a lot of people fall into error.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hughes View Post
    No, I'm suggesting exactly what I said in my last post. We are talking about Rom 11:25-27.
    Hi Michael,

    Yes, we are talking about Romans 11:25-27 certainly.

    Your observations, however, about the descendants of Jacob and a covenant with the Jews are not DIRECTLY exegeted from these verses. Your views are gleaned from the wider import of the chapter in question.

    Please consider, however, this. The Apostle Paul states that not all who are descended from Israel (ie the descendants of JACOB according to the flesh) belong to Israel; see Romans 9:6 in this connection. The great Apostle is adamant that the "children of the promise" NOT the "children of the flesh" (that is, National Israel) are God's children (Romans 9:8).

    If Israel refers merely to the Jews as a nation, then this distinction is removed. Do you see this difficulty in the position you are advocating? However, if Israel refers to "children of the promise" then this distinction is maintained and Paul's argument in Romans 9-11 continues - viz: that God's elect, both Jews and Gentiles, will be saved according to His plan in history.

    The heirs of the promise are those who believe, Jew and Gentile alike (Romans 4). It is because of this that the Apostle can refer to the Church as the "ISRAEL OF GOD" (Galatians 6:16).

    These are the issues that have to be wrestled with and come to grips with.

    I have now explained to you the reasons why I asked you about your views on the NEW COVENANT. Can you now please answer:

    1. Are the gentiles in view in Jeremiah 31:31-33?

    2. Do the gentiles participate in the NEW COVENANT prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-33?

    3. Who is the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16?

    I look forward to your comments and the comments of all on this forum in answer to these questions, and to ADVANCE this discussion.

    Cheers, In Christ Craig

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    We just had a thread recently where this issue was discussed fairly extensively.

    I am of the firm opinion that 'All Israel' is all the elect, both the physical seed of Abraham and those grafted into the tree of Jacob thru faith. I realize that this differs from the position Mike is taking but it does not bother me that others think differently on this issue.

    For reasons I have stated earlier, I am convinced that the distinction between Jew and Gentile no longer exists (it cannot even be identified in present history and past history for a very long time). So the mass conversion referred to is all the elect throughout Christian history since the apostolic era.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hughes View Post
    I don't think that the context will allow the 2nd option here. It's either literally all of the Jews or all of the elect Jews, mainly because there wasn't a covenant with elect gentiles.

    I believe it can only be the elect Jews for one main reason, the two seeds. Christ in John 8:44 sheds light--as it were--on the fact that some of those who are Jews are of their father the devil.

    Maybe that's too simple but that's how I like it.
    Is there anybody out there that disagrees with Michael's view here?

    Is there anybody out there who thinks that Option 1 fits the context of Romans 11:25-27 better?

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    We just had a thread recently where this issue was discussed fairly extensively.

    I am of the firm opinion that 'All Israel' is all the elect, both the physical seed of Abraham and those grafted into the tree of Jacob thru faith. I realize that this differs from the position Mike is taking but it does not bother me that others think differently on this issue.

    For reasons I have stated earlier, I am convinced that the distinction between Jew and Gentile no longer exists (it cannot even be identified in present history and past history for a very long time). So the mass conversion referred to is all the elect throughout Christian history since the apostolic era.
    Thanks Bob,

    As always, I appreciate your input and read your writings with considerable interest.

    I read your post AFTER I had posted asking if anybody out there disagreed with Michael!

    I must say, that although I started this thread with my mind torn between the two options I am more and more, now, leaning to the position that the "All Israel" of Romans 11:25-27 is , indeed, the ELECT of the Jews and Gentiles, the NEW ISRAEL, Romans 4:11-12, 16; 9:24; Galatians 3:26-29; 6:15-16.

    Through discussion and by me "thinking out loud" by way of internet posting my mind is becoming clearer and I am leaning, decidedly, to this position.

    By the way, Bob, is either of these two options regarding "All Israel" entirely compatible with the "two seeds" position you advocate? In other words, there is no connection - in any way - between these concepts?

    Cheers, In Christ Craig

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    I started to write out a long post with my exegesis of Rom 11:25-27 and after reading chapter 10 and 11 a few times I saw how it could mean all the elect Gentiles and Jews.

    I was getting hung up on Paul's usage of Israel in vs. 25 and then switching the meaning the very next verse. I was going to say that we wouldn't allow that in Rom 5 when Paul is talking about "all men". Meaning that Paul's talking about the elect throughout all of Chapter 5, some make the mistake of switching who Paul is talking about from the elect to 'all men' in general.

    So I can see how 'all Israel' can mean all the elect Gentiles and Jews as long as 'Israel' in vs. 25 means elect Jews.


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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I go back and forth on this issue and perhaps will probably continue to do so. Right now I'm sitting on the fence. But in reality I don't think it makes very much difference.

    I waffle between "all Israel" referring to believers who are part of Israel according to the flesh and both believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Other passages speak of the totality of both groups as Israel and perhaps that is what is going on here. Or maybe not. Perhaps he is speaking specifically of those who are of Israel according to the flesh.

    It's pretty clear that he is not saying that all Israel according the flesh will be saved and that's where a lot of people fall into error.
    This is exactly what I was thinking, but it actually makes more sense to mean 'all of the elect Gentiles and Jews'. Like Bob I've held that there is no longer Jew or Gentile I just couldn't see how 'all Israel' could mean 'all Gentile and Jew'.

    The way I was reading it didn't make sense after I inserted what I thought Israel meant in vs. 25 and again in vs. 26. The 'all' in 'all Israel' escalates the scope from Elect Jew (vs. 25) to all of the Elect period (vs. 26).


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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Hi Craig,

    This is a great topic for discussion. I would hold that "All Israel" does indeed include both Jews and Gentiles Elect. In my blog I've written a little about this while covering different topics.

    http://www.predestinarian.net/blog.php?b=244
    In this blog I am mainly looking at dispensational issues but much of it crosses over to this topic. I will paste some of it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by forester07's Blog
    Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called \"the uncircumcision\" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. (Eph 2:11-22 ESV)

    This passage is a huge problem for most dispensationalists. Terms like “alienated from the commonwealth of Israel” and “that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two” and “might reconcile us both to God in one body” are directly contradictory to one of the chief concepts in Dispensationalism, that the church and Israel are two completely different people of God with two completely different plans. Paul does not even hint at a possible separate plan for Israel or a parenthesis made up of the church, both of which dispensationalist hold to. The language in this passage is all of unity in one body and of making two into one. Paul, through the Holy Spirit, is showing that God has one plan for His people (Jews and Gentiles), and that this plan is for them to become the body of Christ, or the Church. Jews and Gentiles are all brought into this body in the same way: through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ who paid for our sins. The picture here is of the Gentiles joining into the commonwealth of Israel and being included into the promises of God. In the dispensational view, ethnic Israel is always kept separate from the church, and they have two very different plans. The whole comparison of how we were once aliens and strangers but are no longer is a clear picture of us joining into a new people of God through Jesus Christ. Most dispensationalists would say that this passage is not referring to ethnic Israel, but to Jewish Christians who are joined with the church emphasizing that they are no longer part of Israel but the church or Body of Christ and inferring that somehow that by becoming a Christian, a Jew is no longer counted as ethnic Israel. This does not make much sense. A Jewish Christian is as much a part of ethnic Israel as a Jewish non-Christian. If God were to treat them completely separately, as the dispensationalist would have us believe, then how are any Jews becoming Christians? I am not saying that God does not have a plan for ethnic Israel, He indeed does, but the plan is not for them to be treated separately, rather, it is for those who are elect Jews to join into the body of Christ and receive salvation in the exact same way as the elect Gentiles do, through the death of Jesus Christ. Those of ethnic Israel who aren’t elect will perish in the exact same way as non-elect gentiles. This seems quite simple but most dispensational can’t grasp it (Matt 16:17). Building from the previous passage, Paul continues his emphasis on unity into one body and one membership by telling about the mystery of Christ. Paul reveals this mystery saying,

    When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
    (Eph 3:4-6 ESV)


    These verses continue to show how the Gentiles are being made fellow heirs and members of the same body with the Jews. The key phrase in this passage is “partakes of the promise,” leading one to the conclusion that the Gentiles are now enjoying the promises that God made to Israel. Again, there is no mention of a separate plan for ethnic Israel anywhere in the text, but to the contrary, there is plenty to suggest unity and incorporation of both Jews and Gentiles into the same body of Christ. It is here I would also disagree with Covenant theology, in that I do not believe that Old Covenant Israel is the Church. I would say the Church is Spiritual Israel but ethnic Israel was never the Church in Old Testament times. Jews and Gentiles are joined together as one new creation, the Church / Spiritual Israel. Old Testament Israel is not the church ever! When the New Covenant and Christ came all things were started new.

    The Old Covenant, now obsolete, (Hebrews 8, 2 Corinthians 3) is fading away while the New Covenant, based on better promises and confirmed with a better sacrifice, has taken its place. The death of Christ on the cross forever broke down the dividing wall of hostility (Old Covenant) and inaugurated the New Covenant in Christ’s Blood. When we understand that the Old Covenant, understood as the covenant made at Mount Sinai, is over and done with and that it was this covenant that started and separated the Nation of Israel, then we realize that there is no way that Israel can be treated differently than the Church. It completely kills the argument for Zionism. The establishment of the New Covenant is what we celebrate during the Lord’s Supper. “In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me’” (1Co 11:25 ESV). The Old Covenant is referred to as a ministry of death (2 Cor. 3:7), a yoke that neither the Jew nor the gentiles could bear (Act 15:10), a wall of hostility (Eph 2:14), obsolete and vanishing away (Heb 8:13). It is this covenant that established Israel as a physical nation, and it is no longer in effect. When you take all this into consideration, it would be unimaginable for Paul to say, “not all the body of Christ is the Body of Christ”, but it makes complete sense when in Romans 9:6 Paul says, “not all Israel is Israel”. So does scripture ever show that promises made to ethnic Israel are really referring to the church? Many times! Here is one example.
    I go on the explain more if you want to check it out. Here is another related blog on Romans 10 this relates directly to the Romans 11 passage.

    http://www.predestinarian.net/blog.php?b=127

    Quote Originally Posted by Forester07's Blog
    Romans 10:19-21 states, \"But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, \"I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.\" Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, \"I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.\" But of Israel he says, \"All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.\"

    Paul here is talking about the inclusion of the gentiles. His point in not to show that the Gospel has been preached to all nations but to make it clear that the Gentiles are also to be included in Gospel preaching and the New Covenant. If you look at the entire context of Chapter 10 you will clearly see this point. The chapter starts with Paul expressing his desire for Israel to be part of those God elected to salvation. He has just got through explaining God's sovereign choice in salvation in Chapter 9 and is now expressing his human desire (Not necessarily God’s) to see his fellow Jews saved.

    \"Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.\" Romans 10:1.

    After expressing this desire Paul goes on to explain the current condition of the Jews.

    \"For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them.\" Romans 10:3-5

    Then from Romans 10:6-15 Paul explains the \"Righteousness based on faith\" and shows how faith is received, which is through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. Notice verse 12 which continues to emphasize the main point of this chapter.

    \"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.\" Romans 10:12.

    Verse 16 takes a drastic turn in the flow of the Chapter. \"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, \"Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?\" Romans 10:16. Now who causes the elect to believe the Gospel of Christ and who imparts faith to the elect? Who hardens the hearts of men and causes them not to obey the gospel? God does! \"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.\" God is the one who creates faith in the hearts of the elect at the appointed time. The elected have been justified from eternity but faith is given to us from God upon hearing of the gospel message. You must tie this back into Chapter 9 for it to make sense. This brings us up to verse 18 which states, \"But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for \"Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.\" Romans 10:18

    What Paul is talking about here is that fact that the Gospel is going out to all nations (Jews and Gentiles). Paul is not making a statement saying that the Great Commission has been completed but that the Gospel shall be preached and heard to all tribes, tongues, and peoples. It is not an exclusive Jewish thing but something for the entire world. Paul's point here is to say that the Gospel is for all types of people and that it has gone out to all the earth, not just the Jews. When you read 19-21 in this context it will all make complete sense. Paul is showing through these verses that Israel should have known about the Gospel being preached to the entire world. Paul is showing that the gentiles are included in the New Covenant and into the Body of Christ. When Paul says \"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved\" he is not making a statement on the way one comes to salvation, but is directly showing Jews that gentiles are also included in the new covenant in Christ. If you are looking at this passage in a different light then I ask you to study the context within the whole argument from chapter 9-11. Otherwise you will not completely get the meaning behind the individual verses. I think many people read too much into the individual verses and completely miss Paul’s main point. Using this passage to argue for either position in the great commission debate is a misuse of the text.
    I hope this helps a little.
    Last edited by Forester07; 12-16-2008 at 05:59 AM.
    The gospel is to be preached indiscriminately to the elect and to the reprobate: but the elect alone come to Christ, because they have been taught of God. - John Calvin
    Forester07's Blog

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Yes!

    As Michael has stated, Paul certainly does use 'Israel' in certain verses to refer to the physical descendents of Abraham--otherwise he could not develop his thesis! But his conclusion regarding 'ALL Israel', I am convinced, is parallel to his conclusion in chap. 9 that 'not all who are OF Israel (physical descendants) ARE Israel (gospel believers) and that all Gentiles who ARE gospel believers ARE Israel.

    Jimmy, thanks so much for your exegesis of the true meaning of this 'mystery'!

    Craig: By the way, Bob, is either of these two options regarding "All Israel" entirely compatible with the "two seeds" position you advocate? In other words, there is no connection - in any way - between these concepts?

    Of course I believe there is a connection--the elect seed of Christ constitutes the true Israel. There is obviously not an automatic jump from one conclusion to the other--the two seeds is a doctrine that must be established from the overall weight of scripture testifying to the unique issues on which it is based.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

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    Re: The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Forester07 View Post
    Hi Craig,

    This is a great topic for discussion. I would hold that \"All Israel\" does indeed include both Jews and Gentiles Elect. In my blog I've written a little about this while covering different topics.

    http://www.predestinarian.net/blog.php?b=244
    In this blog I am mainly looking at dispensational issues but much of it crosses over to this topic. I will paste some of it here.



    I go on the explain more if you want to check it out. Here is another related blog on Romans 10 this relates directly to the Romans 11 passage.

    http://www.predestinarian.net/blog.php?b=127



    I hope this helps a little.
    Hi Jimmy (Forester07),

    Hey, that was a brilliant post and I thoroughly read and digested it.

    I absolutely agree with you that Old Covenant Israel was not the Church. Indeed, you are correct in saying that the Old Covenant is now obsolete. Hebrews 8:13 is DECISIVE in this connection, being the climax of the argument in Hebrews 8 that the NEW COVENANT is based on better promises. Amen!

    I share with you, then, a rejection of "COVENANT" theology.

    The Church, the ELECT of the Jews and Gentiles = THE NEW ISRAEL which began, in my firm judgment, on the Day of Pentecost.

    These considerations, have now sealed this issue for me. The "All Israel" is the ELECT of the Jews and Gentiles. Under the Gospel of Christ there is no longer any distinction between these two entities. I am utterly convinced that this, indeed, is the position of scripture! Thank you for your input - I will check out your blog on a regular basis as I think your writings are solid and substantial.

    Cheers, God bless you Craig

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