The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

[Craig kennedy]

Yes!

As Michael has stated, Paul certainly does use 'Israel' in certain verses to refer to the physical descendents of Abraham--otherwise he could not develop his thesis! But his conclusion regarding 'ALL Israel', I am convinced, is parallel to his conclusion in chap. 9 that 'not all who are OF Israel (physical descendants) ARE Israel (gospel believers) and that all Gentiles who ARE gospel believers ARE Israel.

Jimmy, thanks so much for your exegesis of the true meaning of this 'mystery'!

Craig: By the way, Bob, is either of these two options regarding "All Israel" entirely compatible with the "two seeds" position you advocate? In other words, there is no connection - in any way - between these concepts?

Of course I believe there is a connection--the elect seed of Christ constitutes the true Israel. There is obviously not an automatic jump from one conclusion to the other--the two seeds is a doctrine that must be established from the overall weight of scripture testifying to the unique issues on which it is based.

Thanks Bob,

These posts have helped me to clarify my position on these issues and to come to a settled opinion.

I see clearly, now, that Romans 11:25-27 is at pains to declare HOW ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED! It is concerned with the MANNER of the salvation of "All Israel". The gospel unites - as Jimmy has stated so well - Jew and Gentile in the ONE BODY OF CHRIST.

Yes, indeed, the "All Israel" is made up of everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13), the ELECT of the Jews and Gentiles, the NEW ISRAEL.

I had posed to you a question regarding the "Two Seeds" and I thought you gave an excellent reply:

Craig: By the way, Bob, is either of these two options regarding "All Israel" entirely compatible with the "two seeds" position you advocate? In other words, there is no connection - in any way - between these concepts?

Of course I believe there is a connection--the elect seed of Christ constitutes the true Israel. There is obviously not an automatic jump from one conclusion to the other--the two seeds is a doctrine that must be established from the overall weight of scripture testifying to the unique issues on which it is based.

Amen! I can agree that the ELECT seed of Christ constitutes the true Israel and, certainly, the "All Israel" that is saved by the gospel of Christ in Romans 11:25-27. We are of one mind here on the EXEGESIS of the passage.

Although, at this time, I do not agree with your "Two Seed" position I do concur with you that "there is obviously not an automatic jump from one conclusion to the other--the two seeds is a doctrine that must be established from the overall weight of scripture testifying to the unique issues on which it is based."

Very well said and put, Bob! Thank you!

God bless, Craig

[Brandan Kraft]

I will check out your blog on a regular basis as I think your writings are solid and substantial.

Yes they are and we all love having Jimmy here!

[Highlyfavored]

Craig, you may find some of the writings here helpful, especially those on MCT (Modified Covenant Theology). http://www.predestinarian.net/librar...tegory.php?c=5

Greg

[Saint Nicholas]

1. Are the gentiles in view in Jeremiah 31:31-33?

2. Do the gentiles participate in the NEW COVENANT prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-33?

3. Who is the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16?

I look forward to your comments and the comments of all on this forum in answer to these questions, and to ADVANCE this discussion.

Cheers, In Christ Craig

Hello brother Craig and welcome back to the forum. I will answer the questions posted above.

1. YES
2. YES
3. All of the Elect. both Jew and Gentile. The dividing wall does not exist in Christ's people. Paul makes it clear that "a true jew is one who is circumcised of the heart and not of the flesh" Paul understood that the true Israel of God has always been those of the promise. Those of faith alone are of the seed of Christ and Abraham

I am in agreement with your understanding of the true Israel of God.

Nicholas

[Robert R. Higby]

One additional note: the nature and destiny of non-elect physical Israel needs to be studied as well as the nature and destiny of elect physical Israel. This is where most interpreters have fallen short.

What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened. Rom. 11:7

Paul goes on to describe some in physical Israel who stumbled temporarily alongside of the non-elect who stumbled permanently. But those hardened in Rom. 11:7 are those who stumble forever, who shall never have hope of regeneration. These are the same, in my estimation, as those described by Christ as 'this generation':


Mt 11:16, (NASB), "But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children

Mt 12:39, (NASB), But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;

Mt 12:41, (NASB), "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

Mt 12:42, (NASB), "The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

Mt 12:45, (NASB), "Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation."

Mt 16:4, (NASB), "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them and went away.
Mt 17:17, (NASB), And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me."


Mt 23:36, (NASB), "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Mt 24:34, (NASB), "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

But those who look for a mass conversion of Pharisaic Jews are teaching that 'this generation' will be converted! I don't believe it; they are the hardened non-elect. God will always pluck some elect souls away from them by rescuing some of their physical descendants for Himself, just as He likewise plucks some elect away from the Muslims and Kharma religions! But when Paul affirms that physical Israel will be made jealous, he was referring to the mass of descendants of Abraham already believing in his day and who would continue to believe in those early decades of the gospel as the Gentiles were also brought in. Once their salvation was historically achieved, their distinctive identity as the physical seed of Abraham became gradually irrelevant and they absorbed into the Christian community of believers.

[Craig kennedy]

Craig, you may find some of the writings here helpful, especially those on MCT (Modified Covenant Theology). http://www.predestinarian.net/librar...tegory.php?c=5

Greg

Thanks Greg,

I appreciate the link you have given and I will certainly check it out again and attempt to come to grips with the truths presented there.

Actually, about 9-10 months ago I was moving strongly towards the MCT as advocated by Brandan and Pnet. However, I got "thrown" by the "Two Seed" discussion and, yes, I backtracked and lost the "edge" in this area.

Now that I am back on this forum, I humbly - and yet honestly - admit that I have not got settled positions on every area espoused on this site. I do, however, greatly value this site and it is a credit to all concerned on this forum that I have had my most prized and memorable theological discussions here. Praise God!

My mind is probably more in tune - at this moment of time - with NEW COVENANT theology. However, I am happy to investigate this area more and discuss it. If you can show me better understandings of God's word than I enjoy at the moment, I will gladly embrace them - if they truly reflect the teaching of God's inerrant word.

Cheers, Craig

[Craig kennedy]

Hello brother Craig and welcome back to the forum. I will answer the questions posted above.

1. YES
2. YES
3. All of the Elect. both Jew and Gentile. The dividing wall does not exist in Christ's people. Paul makes it clear that "a true jew is one who is circumcised of the heart and not of the flesh" Paul understood that the true Israel of God has always been those of the promise. Those of faith alone are of the seed of Christ and Abraham

I am in agreement with your understanding of the true Israel of God.

Nicholas

Hi Nicholas,

Thanks for the welcome back and I appreciate your reply.

Yes, we are in hearty agreement on the meaning of the true Israel of God.

God bless, Craig

[Craig kennedy]

One additional note: the nature and destiny of non-elect physical Israel needs to be studied as well as the nature and destiny of elect physical Israel. This is where most interpreters have fallen short.

What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened. Rom. 11:7

Paul goes on to describe some in physical Israel who stumbled temporarily alongside of the non-elect who stumbled permanently. But those hardened in Rom. 11:7 are those who stumble forever, who shall never have hope of regeneration. These are the same, in my estimation, as those described by Christ as 'this generation':


Mt 11:16, (NASB), \"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children

Mt 12:39, (NASB), But He answered and said to them, \"An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;

Mt 12:41, (NASB), \"The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

Mt 12:42, (NASB), \"The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

Mt 12:45, (NASB), \"Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.\"

Mt 16:4, (NASB), \"An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah.\" And He left them and went away.
Mt 17:17, (NASB), And Jesus answered and said, \"You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me.\"


Mt 23:36, (NASB), \"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Mt 24:34, (NASB), \"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

But those who look for a mass conversion of Pharisaic Jews are teaching that 'this generation' will be converted! I don't believe it; they are the hardened non-elect. God will always pluck some elect souls away from them by rescuing some of their physical descendants for Himself, just as He likewise plucks some elect away from the Muslims and Kharma religions! But when Paul affirms that physical Israel will be made jealous, he was referring to the mass of descendants of Abraham already believing in his day and who would continue to believe in those early decades of the gospel as the Gentiles were also brought in. Once their salvation was historically achieved, their distinctive identity as the physical seed of Abraham became gradually irrelevant and they absorbed into the Christian community of believers.

Thanks Bob,

I found your presentation here to be deeply insightful.

Your postulation that the word "generation" describes the moral and spiritual qualities of the hardened ungodly, I agree with.

I have heard many commentators refer to the "this generation" of Matthew 24:34 as being a TIME related thing - you know the old arguments and scenarios; either the group of contemporaries living at the time of the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD or the group of people alive at Christ's Second Coming!

They are wrong! You, I believe, are dead right here! The "this generation" of Matthew 24:34 is a MORALITY related thing!

This was a great post. Thank you.

God bless, Craig

[Craig kennedy]

I have found this to be a great discussion and I have been richly blessed by it. I thank you for your excellent contributions - they have helped "nail" for me an important theological doctrine, viz: that the "All Israel" in Romans 11:25-27 is, indeed, the ELECT OF JEWS AND GENTILES OF ALL GENERATIONS, UNITED IN THE ONE BODY OF CHRIST = THE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD!

Furthermore, this true Church of God = the ISRAEL OF GOD, as presented to us in Galatians 6:16. Praise God!

There is another issue, however, that arises from a serious consideration of Romans 11:25-27. In verse 26b of Romans 11 the Apostle Paul makes the assertion that the deliverer will come from ZION and He will turn godlessness away from Jacob. The deliverer, of course, is Christ; but who and what is ZION in this context? Also, does verse 26b refer to Christ's second advent or to His first advent?

I look forward to your precise and well-considered answers that do full justice to my opening conviction and postulation that:

" the "All Israel" in Romans 11:25-27 is, indeed, the ELECT OF JEWS AND GENTILES OF ALL GENERATIONS, UNITED IN THE ONE BODY OF CHRIST = THE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD!

Furthermore, this true Church of God = the ISRAEL OF GOD, as presented to us in Galatians 6:16. Praise God!"

Cheers, God bless you Craig

[Craig kennedy]

I have found this to be a great discussion and I have been richly blessed by it. I thank you for your excellent contributions - they have helped "nail" for me an important theological doctrine, viz: that the "All Israel" in Romans 11:25-27 is, indeed, the ELECT OF JEWS AND GENTILES OF ALL GENERATIONS, UNITED IN THE ONE BODY OF CHRIST = THE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD!

Furthermore, this true Church of God = the ISRAEL OF GOD, as presented to us in Galatians 6:16. Praise God!

There is another issue, however, that arises from a serious consideration of Romans 11:25-27. In verse 26b of Romans 11 the Apostle Paul makes the assertion that the deliverer will come from ZION and He will turn godlessness away from Jacob. The deliverer, of course, is Christ; but who and what is ZION in this context? Also, does verse 26b refer to Christ's second advent or to His first advent?

I look forward to your precise and well-considered answers that do full justice to my opening conviction and postulation that:

" the "All Israel" in Romans 11:25-27 is, indeed, the ELECT OF JEWS AND GENTILES OF ALL GENERATIONS, UNITED IN THE ONE BODY OF CHRIST = THE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD!

Furthermore, this true Church of God = the ISRAEL OF GOD, as presented to us in Galatians 6:16. Praise God!"

Cheers, God bless you Craig

I am going to reply to my own post and questions here.

I am really sorry about this - but in looking over this thread and, then, reflecting upon my own questions I am seriously questioning my previously stated conclusions.

This has arisen from a number of considerations, viz: the correct view of the inter-relatedness of the Covenants (I reject Covenant theology outrightly); the fact that the Church began on the Day of Pentecost as a new spiritual entity; the nature and character of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit; the fact that Romans 11:26b must refer to the Second Coming and a re-think of Romans 11:11-12 points to a future salvation of Israel after the flesh.

I know some of you will think and say - "double-minded man"; doesn't know what he believes; changes like the wind; hypocrisy...blah, blah, blah!

Well, I assure you of my sincerity, committment and credibility as a genuine believer in Christ. It's just that I always remain honest and open to the word of God and I move to where the best evidence is.

At the moment, my mind is moving toward the dispensational or progressive dispensational understanding of the Covenants as a better explanation of the scriptural evidence. If you would prefer that I leave this forum I will respectfully do so graciously. I do not wish to cause confusion in any way. I have acted in full integrity throughout. You see, my mind is continually thinking, breathing and living theology and I re-think my own positions and critique them.

Therefore, I must utterly renounce (I find this embarrassing) my previous statements on amillennialism.

I have updated and revised my profile accordingly.

Cheers, In Christ Craig

[Forester07]

If you would prefer that I leave this forum I will respectfully do so graciously. I do not wish to cause confusion in any way. I have acted in full integrity throughout. You see, my mind is continually thinking, breathing and living theology and I re-think my own positions and critique them.

Never! We all love discussing things of scripture and have enjoyed your thoughtful responses and posts. I personally would prefer you to stay and interact on these and other things of God. Iron sharpens Iron and this is one of the best places to sharpen your knowledge of the sword of truth (Scripture) even if we disagree. As long as everyone is open to being taught and being led by the Holy Spirit we can all mutually learn from each other. One thing I like about P-Net is that your views will definitely be challenged.

I know some of you will think and say - "double-minded man"; doesn't know what he believes; changes like the wind; hypocrisy...blah, blah, blah!

We have all been in your situation when we first studied these issues. I think no such thing. Given that though let me respond to some things you said.

This has arisen from a number of considerations, viz: the correct view of the inter-relatedness of the Covenants (I reject Covenant theology outrightly);

That's great. Covenant theology has many many issues.

the fact that the Church began on the Day of Pentecost as a new spiritual entity;

Correct. Also the the new covenant replaces the old covenant which started fading away and where all remnants vanished by 70AD.

the nature and character of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit;

Yes!

the fact that Romans 11:26b must refer to the Second Coming

I believe in the second coming. I reject the dispensational view that there will be a 7 year Great Tribulation and that God has a separate plan for ethnic jews. I hold that God's plan for the ethnic jews as a separate entity ended with the new covenant. The church is NOT a parenthesis in God's plan for ethnic Jews as dispensationalist hold to. Dispensationalist believe that Israel will rebuild the temple will preform sacrifices again during the 1000 year reign of Christ. They claim this will be as a memorial to Christ. I say read Hebrews and see how sacrifices have been put to an end through Christ final sacrifice.

and a re-think of Romans 11:11-12 points to a future salvation of Israel after the flesh.

I think you need to see something here. With the coming of the new covenant in Christ's blood there is only the concept of inclusion. Salvation of ethnic jews and gentiles happens in the exact same way, through faith in Christ's death on the cross. I hold to the view that the majority of Old Testament Israel were not saved. The majority were not elect. There was a remnant of elect Israel throughout Old Testament times but never was the entire nation of Israel seen as regenerate. What Paul is saying in Romans 11:11-12 is not that ethnic Israel has a future salvation separate from the church. Paul's point here is to show that God didn't reject ethnic Israel as a whole. There are still those elected out of ethnic Israel that will receive salvation through Jesus Christ. Some of ethnic Israel will join with the gentiles and form the one new body, the church. The Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile. This echo's the last part of Romans 9. In Romans 11:1 this view is clear by what Paul says.

Rom 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

Paul here is showing that God has not totally rejected ethnic Israel as a whole. His argument to prove this is that he is a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin. Paul is using himself as evidence that God has not rejected ethnic Israel but still has a remnant from ethnic Israel that are elect and will receive salvation. My advice here is to study Romans 9-11 again with this in mind: God is not rejecting ethnic Israel as a whole but there is a remnant of ethnic Israel that is elected to salvation and will join with the gentiles in the body of Christ, thus there is a future salvation for ethnic Israel.

Let's study this together and see what we can discover.

[Eileen]

I believe in the second coming. I reject the dispensational view that there will be a 7 year Great Tribulation and that God has a separate plan for ethnic jews. I hold that God's plan for the ethnic jews as a separate entity ended with the new covenant. The church is NOT a parenthesis in God's plan for ethnic Jews as dispensationalist hold to. Dispensationalist believe that Israel will rebuild the temple will preform sacrifices again during the 1000 year reign of Christ. They claim this will be as a memorial to Christ. I say read Hebrews and see how sacrifices have been put to an end through Christ final sacrifice.

Great answers Jimmy. I wonder on the above if it is a valid thought/argument that there can be no sacrifices in the temple because 'who' is a descendant of the tribe of Levi, those appointed by God to be the priests? Do you think the Jew has traced their lineage down to today?

Perhaps that won't matter to the current ethnic Jew anyway, I'm not sure the Jewish thought on that.

Eileen~

[Craig kennedy]

Never! We all love discussing things of scripture and have enjoyed your thoughtful responses and posts. I personally would prefer you to stay and interact on these and other things of God. Iron sharpens Iron and this is one of the best places to sharpen your knowledge of the sword of truth (Scripture) even if we disagree. As long as everyone is open to being taught and being led by the Holy Spirit we can all mutually learn from each other. One thing I like about P-Net is that your views will definitely be challenged.



We have all been in your situation when we first studied these issues. I think no such thing. Given that though let me respond to some things you said.



That's great. Covenant theology has many many issues.



Correct. Also the the new covenant replaces the old covenant which started fading away and where all remnants vanished by 70AD.

Yes!



I believe in the second coming. I reject the dispensational view that there will be a 7 year Great Tribulation and that God has a separate plan for ethnic jews. I hold that God's plan for the ethnic jews as a separate entity ended with the new covenant. The church is NOT a parenthesis in God's plan for ethnic Jews as dispensationalist hold to. Dispensationalist believe that Israel will rebuild the temple will preform sacrifices again during the 1000 year reign of Christ. They claim this will be as a memorial to Christ. I say read Hebrews and see how sacrifices have been put to an end through Christ final sacrifice.



I think you need to see something here. With the coming of the new covenant in Christ's blood there is only the concept of inclusion. Salvation of ethnic jews and gentiles happens in the exact same way, through faith in Christ's death on the cross. I hold to the view that the majority of Old Testament Israel were not saved. The majority were not elect. There was a remnant of elect Israel throughout Old Testament times but never was the entire nation of Israel seen as regenerate. What Paul is saying in Romans 11:11-12 is not that ethnic Israel has a future salvation separate from the church. Paul's point here is to show that God didn't reject ethnic Israel as a whole. There are still those elected out of ethnic Israel that will receive salvation through Jesus Christ. Some of ethnic Israel will join with the gentiles and form the one new body, the church. The Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile. This echo's the last part of Romans 9. In Romans 11:1 this view is clear by what Paul says.

Rom 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

Paul here is showing that God has not totally rejected ethnic Israel as a whole. His argument to prove this is that he is a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin. Paul is using himself as evidence that God has not rejected ethnic Israel but still has a remnant from ethnic Israel that are elect and will receive salvation. My advice here is to study Romans 9-11 again with this in mind: God is not rejecting ethnic Israel as a whole but there is a remnant of ethnic Israel that is elected to salvation and will join with the gentiles in the body of Christ, thus there is a future salvation for ethnic Israel.

Let's study this together and see what we can discover.

Hi Jimmy,

I appreciated this thoughtful post and, in particular, the manner and tone in which you write. This means a lot to me because I am only a seeker of truth and have no Church, denomination or vested interest to DEFEND or PROMOTE!

On this basis, I am happy to reciprocate your kind encouragement:

"Let's study this together and see what we can discover."

Let me say at the outset, although I have read books and commentaries over the years, I am not ultimately influenced by them very much. At the end of the day, they all suffer from their own limitations and their own biases. Therefore, I put supreme weight and focus on what the SCRIPTURES ACTUALLY TEACH.

I also want to say that I have come to my own understanding and conviction in regards to pre-tribulationalism, premillennialism and dispensationalism. The key thing that has made me change my mind and come to this understanding is INTERPRETATIVE METHOD. I believe the historical-grammatical method and a "literal" hermeneutic is the best approach in coming to grips with what the inerrant scriptures MEAN and TEACH in their historical contexts.

It is apparent, then, that throughout all these posts I use my own words and style. It does not bother me unduly if so-called "scholars" disagree with what I think. I do a lot of thinking and searching for truth, as I know many people on this forum do as well. However, in all my thinking I like to come to conclusions which bring CLARITY to the scriptural propsitions.

In your post you state:

"Also the the new covenant replaces the old covenant which started fading away and where all remnants vanished by 70AD."

I agree, as a dispensationalist that the OLD COVENANT WAS MADE OBSOLETE. I believe that the Old Covenant was a CONDITIONAL Covenant made with the Nation of Israel on Mount Sinai. It was, indeed, a LEGAL Covenant which acted as a TUTOR to bring God's elect to faith.

However, the NEW COVENANT in Jeremiah 31 was still to be made with Israel; we - as the ELECT in the present age - get the benefit of it. This is Paul's argument in Romans 11:13-21. This is why I consider both NCT and MCT to fly in the face of these obvious facts.

An honest exegesis of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Romans 11:11-36 DEMANDS a real future for ethnic Israel.

Cheers, In Christ Craig

[Forester07]

However, the NEW COVENANT in Jeremiah 31 was still to be made with Israel; we - as the ELECT in the present age - get the benefit of it. This is Paul's argument in Romans 11:13-21. This is why I consider both NCT and MCT to fly in the face of these obvious facts.

An honest exegesis of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Romans 11:11-36 DEMANDS a real future for ethnic Israel.

I agree that there is a real future for elect ethnic Jews. I just hold that this future is the EXACT SAME as that of the gentiles which is to join into the body of Christ (The Church). I do not hold to the view that ethnic Jews have a completely different plan in God’s mind. God does not treat ethnic Jews differently than gentiles. All Old Testament elect who were under the Old Covenant were saved by grace through faith in the promise of Jesus Christ. The Temple, sacrifices, the law, and rituals all pointed toward the promise of the Messiah. The Old Testament elect were small in number and only a remnant of Israel. On the other hand, the elect who are under the New Covenant are saved by Grace through faith in the reality of Jesus Christ. Under the New Covenant Jesus abolished all the types and shadows and made them unnecessary because He is the realization of everything the Old Covenant pointed towards. Given this fact there can only be one possibility for ethnic Jews in God’s plan, which is to be grafted back into the olive tree with the gentile elect. What other plan is mentioned in scripture for ethnic Jews? Would God have the Jews rebuild the temple and start performing sacrifices again for atonement of sins? No! Christ is the reality of all those. The only answer is that elect ethnic Jews will join together into the body of Christ and this has happened since the first century AD. Ephesians 2 describes this new body in Christ. I have some questions for you so I can get some clarification on what exactly you believe.

1. What kind of future of ethnic Israel do you see scripture describes?

2. Is the future for ethnic Israel centered on Christ or is it separate?

3. Do you believe that God will have ethnic Israel restart sacrifices in a new to be built temple? If so what support from scripture is there?

While it is possible the the current Nation of Israel will build a Temple and restart the sacrificial system, it does not necessarily mean that this would please God. In my mind I would see this as them rebelling against God and Christ's death on the cross by trying to obtain righteousness by the Law.

[Whammer]

3. Do you believe that God will have ethnic Israel restart sacrifices in a new to be built temple? If so what support from scripture is there?

While it is possible the the current Nation of Israel will build a Temple and restart the sacrificial system, it does not necessarily mean that this would please God. In my mind I would see this as them rebelling against God and Christ's death on the cross by trying to obtain righteousness by the Law.

IMHO we will never see this again, never.......on the other side, Craid, read my latest blog, and I know you have been reading the book of hebrews, that book alone does away in my mind that God would even let those that call themselves ethnic, ever accomplish such a feat, it doesnt even fit the concept of progressive revelation as far as types go for even what the NC has to display as the temple, even that is just another type of the real #1 Temple, Jesus in the end of Rev. on display now in a way up to that point even the angels havnt seen yet.

[Robert R. Higby]

What this all boils down to is: either God fulfilled His promise of inclusion to the elect of ethnic Israel in the first (and maybe early second) centuries A.D. or He still hasn't fulfilled it. If He did indeed fulfill what Paul prophesied, looking for a future fulfillment is irrelevant. If we look for a future fulfillment, we are definitely denying that God fulfilled his promise in and following the time of Paul's writing.

I have been a convicted amillennialist since 1980. Of course, there are various perspectives even within that teaching and mine has a certain distinctiveness to it when compared to a lot of 'spiritualizing' a-mil teachers. For instance, I deny that all aspects of the kingdom of God are fulfilled already in the present and I also deny that the future resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked all occurs in a single day or moment. But I have not got into the biblical argumentation on these things for lack of genuine interest. One must pick his battles carefully, otherwise precious time will be wasted on an issue that is not as significant as some of the more pressing gospel issues of our time!

My question to all chiliasts has been the same for many years: DEFINE Israel after the flesh today, HOW am I to identify such an entity? None of them can, of that I am absolutely certain! The whole thing in the end is always left to mystery and paradox.

[Craig kennedy]

I agree that there is a real future for elect ethnic Jews. I just hold that this future is the EXACT SAME as that of the gentiles which is to join into the body of Christ (The Church). I do not hold to the view that ethnic Jews have a completely different plan in God’s mind. God does not treat ethnic Jews differently than gentiles. All Old Testament elect who were under the Old Covenant were saved by grace through faith in the promise of Jesus Christ. The Temple, sacrifices, the law, and rituals all pointed toward the promise of the Messiah. The Old Testament elect were small in number and only a remnant of Israel. On the other hand, the elect who are under the New Covenant are saved by Grace through faith in the reality of Jesus Christ. Under the New Covenant Jesus abolished all the types and shadows and made them unnecessary because He is the realization of everything the Old Covenant pointed towards. Given this fact there can only be one possibility for ethnic Jews in God’s plan, which is to be grafted back into the olive tree with the gentile elect. What other plan is mentioned in scripture for ethnic Jews? Would God have the Jews rebuild the temple and start performing sacrifices again for atonement of sins? No! Christ is the reality of all those. The only answer is that elect ethnic Jews will join together into the body of Christ and this has happened since the first century AD. Ephesians 2 describes this new body in Christ. I have some questions for you so I can get some clarification on what exactly you believe.

1. What kind of future of ethnic Israel do you see scripture describes?

2. Is the future for ethnic Israel centered on Christ or is it separate?

3. Do you believe that God will have ethnic Israel restart sacrifices in a new to be built temple? If so what support from scripture is there?

While it is possible the the current Nation of Israel will build a Temple and restart the sacrificial system, it does not necessarily mean that this would please God. In my mind I would see this as them rebelling against God and Christ's death on the cross by trying to obtain righteousness by the Law.

PART ONE

These are very good questions and I am pleased to respond to them.

I DO NOT, of course, think that all Jews will be saved. I agree with you that even in the Old Testament only an ELECT GODLY REMNANT WAS EVER SAVED. I further agree with you that the WAY OF SALVATION is always BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH in both the Old and New Testaments.

The future that I see in scripture for ethnic Israel is that they are appointed by DIVINE DESIGN to undergo God's divine wrath in THE GREAT TRIBULATION. The Old Testament, Matthew 24 and Mark 13 speak of the Great Tribulation in relation to the Jews. The Antichrist, in my judgment, will head up the Jewish apostasy. The Jews will perfect their idolatry by taking to themselves the completeness of wickedness - please read and study Matthew 12:45, in this connection. They will worship the "false trinity" and receive the mark of the beast.

God will then pour indignation out upon them and yet the final result will be that the Deliverer will come out of ZION; He (that is Christ) shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Romans 11:26). This refers to the ELECT from among the Jewish people (Jacob's people).

The Great Tribulation is PENAL in character. It will be the Time of Jacob's trouble as presented to us in Jeremiah 30:4-10 with Daniel 12 and Matthew 24.

I am now convinced because of the HERMENEUTICAL PRINCIPLE that ISRAEL in scripture always means Israel and is never transferred to the Church, which is a DISTINCT METAPHYSICAL ENTITY in this age.

Israel will be established as head of all Nations on earth according to God's original purpose for them - see here and study carefully, Deuteronomy 26:18-19, 28:13; Isaiah 2:1-5, 60:14; Acts 1:6-7; Daniel 3:29-30, 7:27, Psalm 18:43, Psalm 47:3...among others.

The question was posed:

"Do you believe that God will have ethnic Israel restart sacrifices in a new to be built temple? If so what support from scripture is there?"

I will answer this in PART TWO of my response to Jimmy's questions.

Cheers, In Christ Craig

[Craig kennedy]

I agree that there is a real future for elect ethnic Jews. I just hold that this future is the EXACT SAME as that of the gentiles which is to join into the body of Christ (The Church). I do not hold to the view that ethnic Jews have a completely different plan in God’s mind. God does not treat ethnic Jews differently than gentiles. All Old Testament elect who were under the Old Covenant were saved by grace through faith in the promise of Jesus Christ. The Temple, sacrifices, the law, and rituals all pointed toward the promise of the Messiah. The Old Testament elect were small in number and only a remnant of Israel. On the other hand, the elect who are under the New Covenant are saved by Grace through faith in the reality of Jesus Christ. Under the New Covenant Jesus abolished all the types and shadows and made them unnecessary because He is the realization of everything the Old Covenant pointed towards. Given this fact there can only be one possibility for ethnic Jews in God’s plan, which is to be grafted back into the olive tree with the gentile elect. What other plan is mentioned in scripture for ethnic Jews? Would God have the Jews rebuild the temple and start performing sacrifices again for atonement of sins? No! Christ is the reality of all those. The only answer is that elect ethnic Jews will join together into the body of Christ and this has happened since the first century AD. Ephesians 2 describes this new body in Christ. I have some questions for you so I can get some clarification on what exactly you believe.

1. What kind of future of ethnic Israel do you see scripture describes?

2. Is the future for ethnic Israel centered on Christ or is it separate?

3. Do you believe that God will have ethnic Israel restart sacrifices in a new to be built temple? If so what support from scripture is there?

While it is possible the the current Nation of Israel will build a Temple and restart the sacrificial system, it does not necessarily mean that this would please God. In my mind I would see this as them rebelling against God and Christ's death on the cross by trying to obtain righteousness by the Law.

PART TWO

Jimmy asked the excellent question:

"Do you believe that God will have ethnic Israel restart sacrifices in a new to be built temple? If so what support from scripture is there?"

I commend the integrity of this question as I realise the notion of animal sacrifices being re-instituted and the Temple being re-built, is entirely bothersome for those who hold to CHRIST'S FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS.

I must admit that I found this concept bothersome and irritating before I examined again the Word of God and allowed it to have supreme authority. Let me explain my position.

The Lord will establish His Kingdom in power and will sit on His throne in the heavens as a Priest and King, as the true Melchisedec. He will reign in peace for 1000 years (the Millennium). Please refer to, read and study Zechariah 6:13, Psalm 103:19, Psalm 110:4, Psalm 47:7-8, Revelation 20:4, Psalm 22:28, Zechariah 14:9...among others.

Obviously, the earthly city of Jerusalem will be rebuilt and inhabited again after its destruction during the Indignation. All of this is held on the basis of Isaiah 61:4, Jeremiah 30:18, 31:38-40, Amos 9:14. I do not see, quite honestly, that any of this can be refuted if one uses the LITERAL HERMENEUTICAL PRINCIPLE that I have advocated.

The re-institution of the animal sacrifices, then, has to do with the ADMINISTRATION OF THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM. Yes, on great reflection I do believe that the Levitical sacrifices will be offered again. Does this INFRACT the Lord's glory in any way? NO! Of course not! The Lord's FINISHED WORK ON CALVARY is supreme, towering over the wrecks of time. These sacrifices offered during the Millennium will be COMMEMORATIVE, being a REMEMBRANCE of the Finished Work of Christ. Please refer here to Ezekiel 44-46, Isaiah 56:7, Jeremiah 33:18, Zechariah 14:16-21 and Malachi 3:3-4.

It is important to see that the Lord in the Millennium will rejoice over Israel with singing. He will, indeed, rest in His love on the testimony of Zephaniah 3:17.

It is not hard, then, to see that in this context a NEW TEMPLE (or Sanctuary) will be built and situated in the oblation a few miles north of Jerusalem. It will be a "House of prayer for all people". This is based on Ezekiel 40-42:20, 45:1-5, 48:8, Isaiah 56:7, Revelation 7:15, Psalm 68:29.

It is my sincere conviction that when these scriptures are interpreted LITERALLY in their appropriate HISTORICAL CONTEXT, they yield unquestionably a future for ethnic Israel; the re-institution of the animal sacrifices as a MEMORIAL; and a NEW TEMPLE built as a House of prayer for all people.

May God bless you, Cheers In Christ Craig

[Forester07]

Craig,

I understand the common dispensational view points. So it is clear you now hold to the classical dispensational views for these passages. I won’t spend the massive amount of time that it would take to explain my differences in interpretation here but I would point you to John Gill’s commentary on these verses which I mostly agree with and which will give you another interpretation of these passages. I simply do not have the time to examine all these passages and since I agree with much of what Gill says I will point you to him on these matters. Sorry for the cop out my time is limited. This does boil down to basic hermeneutical principles. Bob in his last post sums it up perfectly in my mind.

On another note, I completely disagree with what you said here:

I am now convinced because of the HERMENEUTICAL PRINCIPLE that ISRAEL in scripture always means Israel and is never transferred to the Church, which is a DISTINCT METAPHYSICAL ENTITY in this age.

The reason is because Paul so clearly spells out a different position.

Romans 2:27-29 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. - 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. - 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, - 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." - 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

I do know the dispensationalist response but I disagree. I was taught Dispensationalism in the churches I grew up in since about the time I was 8 and I have come to totally reject dispensationalism. Thanks for spelling out your views so clearly. I think if we are to continue to study this issue it will be more productive to examine the underlying hermeneutic principles that drive the systems. In my mind it is pointless to discuss between systems that are fundamentally different in how they approach scripture (Even though I think using a literal method can still result in something other than dispensationalism). Instead of discussing the results of the various systems it would be better to discuss the foundation. If you want go into this another thread would be appropriate, since this thread is beginning to go off the original topic.

[Eileen]

These sacrifices offered during the Millennium will be COMMEMORATIVE, being a REMEMBRANCE of the Finished Work of Christ.

Hebrews 10:12 “But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God”

Hebrews 10:4 “For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins”

For we have been redeemed with “the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:19)

The only MEMORIAL/REMEMBRANCE we are instructed by God to celebrate is the memorial of the Lords’ death……….”Do this in remembrance of Me” (Luke 22:19) (1 Cor 11: 24-25) and that is with bread and wine.

1 Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

The whole novel idea of instituting sacrifices in a new temple as a memorial is, in my opinion, a great mockery of the body/ life and blood/death of the Lord Jesus Christ and His own very words on the cross “It is finished”. We are specifically instructed, by God, to never return to the types and shadows, the beggarly elements because the One who was represented by those types and shadows has come and delivered His people.

Eileen~