The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

[Craig kennedy]

Craig,

I understand the common dispensational view points. So it is clear you now hold to the classical dispensational views for these passages. I won’t spend the massive amount of time that it would take to explain my differences in interpretation here but I would point you to John Gill’s commentary on these verses which I mostly agree with and which will give you another interpretation of these passages. I simply do not have the time to examine all these passages and since I agree with much of what Gill says I will point you to him on these matters. Sorry for the cop out my time is limited. This does boil down to basic hermeneutical principles. Bob in his last post sums it up perfectly in my mind.

On another note, I completely disagree with what you said here:



The reason is because Paul so clearly spells out a different position.

Romans 2:27-29 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. - 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. - 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, - 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." - 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

I do know the dispensationalist response but I disagree. I was taught Dispensationalism in the churches I grew up in since about the time I was 8 and I have come to totally reject dispensationalism. Thanks for spelling out your views so clearly. I think if we are to continue to study this issue it will be more productive to examine the underlying hermeneutic principles that drive the systems. In my mind it is pointless to discuss between systems that are fundamentally different in how they approach scripture (Even though I think using a literal method can still result in something other than dispensationalism). Instead of discussing the results of the various systems it would be better to discuss the foundation. If you want go into this another thread would be appropriate, since this thread is beginning to go off the original topic.

Jimmy suggested:

"If you want go into this another thread would be appropriate, since this thread is beginning to go off the original topic."

I have started a New Thread under the General Discussion forum entitled:

'The Hermeneutical principle in interpreting the Sciptures.'

I look forward to a full and informed discussion on this theme.

Cheers, In christ craig

[Robert R. Higby]

It is fine that a new thread is starting on this subject. My long-standing question to dispensationalists remains: WHO specifically is Israel after the flesh today? I, for one, know that I myself am just as likely a candidate for this genealogy as those who call themselves Jews!

[Craig kennedy]

It is fine that a new thread is starting on this subject. My long-standing question to dispensationalists remains: WHO specifically is Israel after the flesh today? I, for one, know that I myself am just as likely a candidate for this genealogy as those who call themselves Jews!

According to the Word of God, a natural Jew - after the flesh - is one who descends (biologically speaking) from the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

We gentiles, biologically speaking, are not natural Jews but - if we are REGENERATE - we are, indeed, the SPIRITUAL children of Abraham.

The natural Jews have been SCATTERED for some 2000 years, but God has promised that He will REGATHER them to the land of Palestine in UNBELIEF.
There are many passages that speak of this REGATHERING, viz: Deuteronomy 30:1-5; Isaiah 10:20-22, 26:19, 49:8-26; Zechariah 8:7-8 among many others.

As the angels gather the ELECT of Israel (obviously, only the GODLY JEWISH REMNANT will be saved) in Matthew 24:31, the Lord will PURGE THE REBELS from among them and those with faith will be brought into the land; please read here Ezekiel 11:9-10, 20:35-38, Hosea 2:14-15, Amos 9:9-10, Zephaniah 3:10-12, Jeremiah 31:17, Psalm 135:14-18.

It is within this context, that the "All Israel" of Romans 11:25-27 will be saved; that is the GODLY REMNANT (Regenerate) among the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

This, I believe, is the precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel."

Cheers, May God bless you Craig

[Highlyfavored]

This, I believe, is the precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel."

And all of us here believe you are wrong.

[Robert R. Higby]

We gentiles, biologically speaking, are not natural Jews but - if we are REGENERATE - we are, indeed, the SPIRITUAL children of Abraham.

This is simply not true historically. The scattering of the tribes occurred throughout all of Europe and no one of European descent (whether Anglo-Saxons or the 'Jews' of Eastern Europe who where actually mostly of Asian geneaology) have any unique claim to have Abrahamic blood in them. Ditto for Africa, South America, etc. The physical seed of Abraham has been scattered throughout the whole Earth and it CANNOT be re-gathered today without fradulent claims to a fulfillment of prophecy (like what happened in Israel in 1948).

[Craig kennedy]

And all of us here believe you are wrong.

I realise that and I respect your right to believe as you do.

Cheers, In Christ Craig

[Craig kennedy]

We gentiles, biologically speaking, are not natural Jews but - if we are REGENERATE - we are, indeed, the SPIRITUAL children of Abraham.

This is simply not true historically. The scattering of the tribes occurred throughout all of Europe and no one of European descent (whether Anglo-Saxons or the 'Jews' of Eastern Europe who where actually mostly of Asian geneaology) have any unique claim to have Abrahamic blood in them. Ditto for Africa, South America, etc. The physical seed of Abraham has been scattered throughout the whole Earth and it CANNOT be re-gathered today without fradulent claims to a fulfillment of prophecy (like what happened in Israel in 1948).

Ditto remarks as per my response to Greg in the preceding post.

I am under no illusion as to what you believe. I do NOT agree with your viewpoint but I do respect your right to believe as you do.

Cheers, In Christ Craig

[InChristAlways]

Among those who hold to the Amillennial view of eschatology there is a difference of opinion about what the Apostle Paul meant by the Salvation of "All Israel" in Romans 11:26-27.

Some have suggested that the "All Israel" is the regenerated, spiritual ELECT remnant among the PHYSICAL ISRAELITES.

Others have suggested that the "All Israel" of Romans 11:26-27 is the ELECT of all generations without any reference to the ELECT among the Israelites according to the flesh.

I am interested in obtaining a full and rigorous discussion of these issues and I am hoping for QUALITY posts that delineate the PRECISE meaning of "All Israel".

May God bless all who participate in this discussion, Craig

Hi Craig. Interesting thread. When you say you are Amill, is that implying you view much of Revelation and the first Resurrection as Past?
Another words, how much of Revelation do you view as fulfilled.

I myself view Armegeddon/Gog-magog as one and the same event and what I find interesting about Romans 9:27 is the phrase "number as the sand of the sea" which ironically is used in Reve 20:8 which would also be the fulfillment of Dan 12 which I view as fulfilled. Thoughts?

Daniel 12:1 And in time, that , Miyka'el shall standup, the chief, the great, the one standing over sons of people of thee.
And a time of distress becomes which not occurred from to become of a Nation until the time that.
And in-time, that, people of thee shall Escape, every of the one being found being Written in Scroll.

Romans 9:27 "Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the Number of the sons of Israel as the Sand of the Sea, the Remnant shall be being saved'". [Isaiah 10:22,23]

Reve 20:8 and he shall be coming out to deceive the nations, the in the Four Corners of the Land, the Gog and Magog, to be together-assembling them into the battle of which the Number of them as the Sand of the Sea.[Ezekiel 7:1-2]

[Craig kennedy]

Hi Craig. Interesting thread. When you say you are Amill, is that implying you view much of Revelation and the first Resurrection as Past?
Another words, how much of Revelation do you view as fulfilled.

I myself view Armegeddon/Gog-magog as one and the same event and what I find interesting about Romans 9:27 is the phrase "number as the sand of the sea" which ironically is used in Reve 20:8 which would also be the fulfillment of Dan 12 which I view as fulfilled. Thoughts?

Daniel 12:1 And in time, that , Miyka'el shall standup, the chief, the great, the one standing over sons of people of thee.
And a time of distress becomes which not occurred from to become of a Nation until the time that.
And in-time, that, people of thee shall Escape, every of the one being found being Written in Scroll.

Romans 9:27 "Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the Number of the sons of Israel as the Sand of the Sea, the Remnant shall be being saved'". [Isaiah 10:22,23]

Reve 20:8 and he shall be coming out to deceive the nations, the in the Four Corners of the Land, the Gog and Magog, to be together-assembling them into the battle of which the Number of them as the Sand of the Sea.[Ezekiel 7:1-2]

Hi InChristAlways,

Thanks for your post. I appreciated it.

Firstly, a word of explanation from me which should make my position clearer to you.

I have been a committed Christian for 31 years now. In my earlier Christian life I attended an Orthodox Presbyterian Church and I held to the amillennial view of eschatology; then I attended a Baptist Church and held to the pre-tribulational, dispensational and pre-millennial view of eschatology. I have been a Baptist Pastor, although I am not currently attending any Church.

I have always been a deep thinker and driven to find precise and accurate answers to theological questions!

Over the past few months, my mind has been torn between these two theological systems. It was, then, in this context that I presented this thread for discussion.

If you read the whole thread in context, you will see that I did say that I was amillennial. However, somewhere in the process of discussion a whole series of things "fell into place" and I have returned to my roots, viz: the pre-tribulational, dispensational and pre-millennial schema as the most consistent and coherent explanation of the biblical facts.

I was, already, well versed - from former days - in the specific facts, details and scenarios of this METHOD OF INTERPRETATION. It was, then, easy for me to SHIFT my interpretative focus quite easily and readily once I was settled on the FOUNDATIONAL BASIS of this system of interpretation.

I hope this gives you the background to my change in embracing the pre-tribulational position as the truth on this matter. I have just got home from work (I am a Bus Driver, and some of the days are long!) and I have to get up early in the morning. However, tomorrow I will answer your specific questions, from my viewpoint, concerning the structure of the Book of Revelation and the nature of Armageddon, etc.

Thank you for your queries.

God bless you, In Christ Craig

[Whammer]

I myself view Armegeddon/Gog-magog as one and the same event and what I find interesting about Romans 9:27 is the phrase "number as the sand of the sea" which ironically is used in Reve 20:8 which would also be the fulfillment of Dan 12 which I view as fulfilled. Thoughts?

Hi Steve, I was just curious, its was about 4 years ago that you joined and I hadnt seen you post for awhile, could you update your profile a bit for us. You do have some great thoughts to discuss but I thought it would be easier if you did update as much as was possible

[Craig kennedy]

Hi Craig. Interesting thread. When you say you are Amill, is that implying you view much of Revelation and the first Resurrection as Past?
Another words, how much of Revelation do you view as fulfilled.

I myself view Armegeddon/Gog-magog as one and the same event and what I find interesting about Romans 9:27 is the phrase "number as the sand of the sea" which ironically is used in Reve 20:8 which would also be the fulfillment of Dan 12 which I view as fulfilled. Thoughts?

Daniel 12:1 And in time, that , Miyka'el shall standup, the chief, the great, the one standing over sons of people of thee.
And a time of distress becomes which not occurred from to become of a Nation until the time that.
And in-time, that, people of thee shall Escape, every of the one being found being Written in Scroll.

Romans 9:27 "Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the Number of the sons of Israel as the Sand of the Sea, the Remnant shall be being saved'". [Isaiah 10:22,23]

Reve 20:8 and he shall be coming out to deceive the nations, the in the Four Corners of the Land, the Gog and Magog, to be together-assembling them into the battle of which the Number of them as the Sand of the Sea.[Ezekiel 7:1-2]

Hi InChristAlways,

I have explained in Post Number 49 of this thread, my reasons for now embracing and adopting the pre-tribulational, dispensational and pre-millennial eschatology.

It was in deeply reflecting upon the CHARACTER and NATURE of the Salvation of "All Israel", that has led me to the belief that this Salvation has to do with the GODLY JEWISH REMNANT who survives the purging of the Great Tribulation.

Do I believe that every Jew who lives through the Time of Jacob's Trouble will be saved? ABSOLUTELY NOT! No - two thirds of those in the land will perish; see Zechariah 13:8, in this connection. The Deliverer (that is CHRIST) will come from Zion and turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Romans 11:26).

You see, there will be a PURGING in the Great Tribulation, and Ezekiel 20:30-38 is clear that the REBELS amongst the Jews will never enter the land. They will be purged and only those born of God - the ELECT - will enter the land. Then All Israel will be righteous (Isaiah 60:21).

I find this is the character of the deliverance out of JACOB'S TROUBLE and the introduction into REST AND BLESSING of THE ELECT OF ISRAEL, that is the true Israel, the Israel of God. This, I believe, is the precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel" as given to us in Romans 11:25-27.

You can see, then, that I hold to CLASSIC DISPENSATIONALISM ( an earthly people and a heavenly people) and not to Progressive Dispensationalism (which is more attuned to Covenantism).

It is obvious, then, that I hold that the majority of the Book of Revelation is STILL FUTURE; and that the FIRST RESSURRECTION is still future.

Your other queries, can be readily grasped and apprehended within this theological schema which, in my opinion, resonates with the harmonious propositions of Holy Writ.

God bless you, In Christ Craig

[Brandan Kraft]

Ditto remarks as per my response to Greg in the preceding post.

I am under no illusion as to what you believe. I do NOT agree with your viewpoint but I do respect your right to believe as you do.

Cheers, In Christ Craig

What don't you agree about Bob's post specifically?

I find it interesting Craig that you came onto this site convinced of Amillennialism and WHAM, now you're a dispensationalist in such a short time span. That's quite a change! Not that this really matters to me, I just find it quite interesting - were you leaning toward dispensationalism before you came to visit? You seem to "change" quite a bit when you come to visit us for a little while. What's going on?

Curious,
Brandan

[Craig kennedy]

What don't you agree about Bob's post specifically?

I find it interesting Craig that you came onto this site convinced of Amillennialism and WHAM, now you're a dispensationalist in such a short time span. That's quite a change! Not that this really matters to me, I just find it quite interesting - were you leaning toward dispensationalism before you came to visit? You seem to "change" quite a bit when you come to visit us for a little while. What's going on?

Curious,
Brandan

Hi Brandon,

I think I have explained myself very well, if you read my posts in the context of this thread.

I am well versed in the foundational principles of both amillennialism and pre-tribulational, dispensational, pre-millennialism. It is just that I now think the latter is the biblical view.

When I visit this site I am blessed by the theological depth and rigour of much of the discussion, and it is to the credit of this forum that most matters are not "glossed over".

I realise my theological positions are not the views of Pnet. I respect your views and recognise your INTEGRITY and CREDIBILITY in holding them.

I visit this site because I can discern God's providential hand upon it, even though I cannot find myself in full agreement with your views.

May God bless you, In Christ Craig

[Whammer]

When I visit this site I am blessed by the theological depth and rigour of much of the discussion, and it is to the credit of this forum that most matters are not "glossed over".

I realise my theological positions are not the views of Pnet. I respect your views and recognise your INTEGRITY and CREDIBILITY in holding them.

I visit this site because I can discern God's providential hand upon it, even though I cannot find myself in full agreement with your views.

May God bless you, In Christ Craig

I always enjoy the tone you use in your debating, I am striving toward doing better at that in prayer.
I think though what most of us would want you to consider as you look back over your posts, even since you joined, look back and see if this partial sentence from Paul doesnt fit? Eph. 4:14
I mean, there is always growth in all of us, but my friend, with you it is like a pendulum, so it does appear that you are tossed to and fro........
but, because of your respectful way of posting, the facilitators have made it clear........stay. I agree with that as you know.

[Craig kennedy]

I always enjoy the tone you use in your debating, I am striving toward doing better at that in prayer.
I think though what most of us would want you to consider as you look back over your posts, even since you joined, look back and see if this partial sentence from Paul doesnt fit? Eph. 4:14
I mean, there is always growth in all of us, but my friend, with you it is like a pendulum, so it does appear that you are tossed to and fro........
but, because of your respectful way of posting, the facilitators have made it clear........stay. I agree with that as you know.

Thanks Bryan,

I always enjoy your comments and observations, as I think you know.

I think you will better understand my position if you realise that I have had a long period - some 10 years approximately, where I have attended NO Church; and so, accordingly, I have been able to investigate truths objectively, independently and impartially. I have no one to answer to, EXCEPT GOD!

God has guided me graciously and they have been blessed years - overthrowing much of the "piffle" of the Church world and drawing closer to CHRIST HIMSELF in prayer, spirituality and doctrinal truth.

I am grateful, Bryan, that even though we do not agree on every "jot and tittle" that is on the theological horizon, you appear to recognise my credibility as a Christian and you appear to ENCOURAGE me in that walk!

Therefore, thank you!

In Christ, Craig

[proorismenos]

Greetings in Christ.

I have followed the discussion with great interest.
I am new to the forum. I appreciate the way in which the discussion is conducted and I am pleases to see the courtesy extended.

While Craig has moved back to his original roots, I have had a similar trek in my walk. I was saved through the instrumentality of a Presbyterian church in Cyprus, and my senior pastor was a staunch Calvinist. He had translated the WCF into Greek. The minister that had most contact with me, however, was partial to a semi-dispensational theology. I ended up in Bible College in Athens Greece, where I was taught to abandon the Calvinistic beliefs of my senior pastor. Since then I have grown and have formally added to my credentials. I completed a course of study in leading to an M.Div. Then I pursued post graduate work in systematic theology and graduated with a Ph.D. in 2004. Throughout my continuing journey, I have been drawn back to my Calvinist Reformed heritage by way of dispensationalism. I have studied at the highest level with progressive dispensationalist pioneer Craig Blaising so I know the system very well. In a sense, my journey has been the opposite of Craig's. But I am glad that he is making it. One thing that the Lord has certainly taught me through the years is that I must be open to growing and that means change. If I believe today the exact same things I believed ten years ago without any development or modification, then I am either completely oblivious to the Spirit's use of the Scripture or I have arrived and have been in heaven for the last ten years.

One question to posit in the particular matter. In the Greek, the text indicates that once the number of the gentiles comes in, outo "so" all Israel will be saved. This was always a problem for me as a dispensationalist. I would have to resort to a theological approach to avoid the necessary connection of the way Paul has expressed himself linking the saved gentiles as a part of all Israel. So despite the fact that you have indicated commitment to the theological position that Israel in Scripture always means literal physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, Paul seems to provide a biblical exception. Can you explain the meaning of outo, this alone can determine the question of whether all Israel includes Gentiles or not.

Sincerely,
proorismenos

[comitatus1]

Among those who hold to the Amillennial view of eschatology there is a difference of opinion about what the Apostle Paul meant by the Salvation of "All Israel" in Romans 11:26-27.

Some have suggested that the "All Israel" is the regenerated, spiritual ELECT remnant among the PHYSICAL ISRAELITES.

Others have suggested that the "All Israel" of Romans 11:26-27 is the ELECT of all generations without any reference to the ELECT among the Israelites according to the flesh.

I am interested in obtaining a full and rigorous discussion of these issues and I am hoping for QUALITY posts that delineate the PRECISE meaning of "All Israel".

May God bless all who participate in this discussion, Craig

Craig,

I haven't posted for a while but was interested in your question.

When I look at this whole issue, it seems to me there are two dynamics at work in Paul's thinking:

1. Jews and Gentiles are now one people in Christ, and...
2. Jews still hold a distinct status in God's plan.

At first glance, these two ideas seem opposed, but I think that if you include Romans 11:25 to provide some context to 11:26,27 then you will see that these are complementary ideas.

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

The essential unity of God's people is clearly laid out in that elect Gentiles and elect Jews share the same destiny, it is simply a matter of timing as to when the salvation of each group is manifested. For now, while Israel is PARTIALLY hardened, Gentiles, and some Jews, enter the Kingdom of God.
After the full number of Gentiles has come in, then the final and complete number of Jews will come in as well.

What I think Paul is doing is affirm that the Gentile and Jews are one people, while saying it in a way that still allows for the distinctiveness of the salvation of Israel. So, in the fullest, most complete sense, when he says "ALL Israel" he means all the elect. In terms of Israel, however [and this theme of speaking about only Israel continues through verse 31] Paul means the final number of Jews who will be saved in the time which is consumated at the second coming of Christ.


Chris

[Craig kennedy]

Greetings in Christ.

I have followed the discussion with great interest.
I am new to the forum. I appreciate the way in which the discussion is conducted and I am pleases to see the courtesy extended.

While Craig has moved back to his original roots, I have had a similar trek in my walk. I was saved through the instrumentality of a Presbyterian church in Cyprus, and my senior pastor was a staunch Calvinist. He had translated the WCF into Greek. The minister that had most contact with me, however, was partial to a semi-dispensational theology. I ended up in Bible College in Athens Greece, where I was taught to abandon the Calvinistic beliefs of my senior pastor. Since then I have grown and have formally added to my credentials. I completed a course of study in leading to an M.Div. Then I pursued post graduate work in systematic theology and graduated with a Ph.D. in 2004. Throughout my continuing journey, I have been drawn back to my Calvinist Reformed heritage by way of dispensationalism. I have studied at the highest level with progressive dispensationalist pioneer Craig Blaising so I know the system very well. In a sense, my journey has been the opposite of Craig's. But I am glad that he is making it. One thing that the Lord has certainly taught me through the years is that I must be open to growing and that means change. If I believe today the exact same things I believed ten years ago without any development or modification, then I am either completely oblivious to the Spirit's use of the Scripture or I have arrived and have been in heaven for the last ten years.

One question to posit in the particular matter. In the Greek, the text indicates that once the number of the gentiles comes in, outo "so" all Israel will be saved. This was always a problem for me as a dispensationalist. I would have to resort to a theological approach to avoid the necessary connection of the way Paul has expressed himself linking the saved gentiles as a part of all Israel. So despite the fact that you have indicated commitment to the theological position that Israel in Scripture always means literal physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, Paul seems to provide a biblical exception. Can you explain the meaning of outo, this alone can determine the question of whether all Israel includes Gentiles or not.

Sincerely,
proorismenos

Hi proorismenos,

I appreciate your post immensely and I am impressed by the fact that you have recognised my spiritual journey and the hand of God upon it.

I think you have picked up on the fact that my position is that of a DEEP-THINKING, CLASSICAL DISPENSATIONALIST. I reject the Progressive Dispensationalist view because I think it basically waters down the scriptural distinction between ISRAEL and THE CHURCH. It also enlarges on the original promises made to Israel and, thus, moves in the direction of covenantism.

In Your post, you ask:

"One question to posit in the particular matter. In the Greek, the text indicates that once the number of the gentiles comes in, outo "so" all Israel will be saved. This was always a problem for me as a dispensationalist. I would have to resort to a theological approach to avoid the necessary connection of the way Paul has expressed himself linking the saved gentiles as a part of all Israel. So despite the fact that you have indicated commitment to the theological position that Israel in Scripture always means literal physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, Paul seems to provide a biblical exception. Can you explain the meaning of outo, this alone can determine the question of whether all Israel includes Gentiles or not."

Yes, I do believe that ISRAEL in scripture always refers to the literal physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. However, I do not believe that the "All Israel" as delineated in Romans 11:25-27 means that every natural Jew will be saved - NO WAY! God will use the period of the Great Tribulation to PURGE the rebels and allow the JEWISH GODLY REMNANT (the All Israel of Romans 11:26) to enter the Millennial blessing, in fulfillment of the ancient Covenants made with Israel.

The "outo" means in this way...in this manner...through this DESIGNATED PROCESS...All Israel will be saved! The FULL NUMBER OF THE GENTILES referred to in Romans 11:25, refers to the fact that there will be Gentiles brought into blessing through the preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom. These are seen in Revelation 7:13-17. They (the Gentiles) are said to "come out of the Great Tribulation" (Revelation 7:14). The same such people are also found in Matthew 25:34-40.

Therefore, at the END OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION when Christ comes to judge the Nations and to set up the Kingdom in power, All Israel will be saved in the manner I have proposed above and the SAVED GENTILES DURING THE TIME OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION will also be saved and included in the Ressurection of the Just.

I am delighted that you seem to recognise the credibility and authenticity of my position.

Cheers, In Christ Craig

[Craig kennedy]

Craig,

I haven't posted for a while but was interested in your question.

When I look at this whole issue, it seems to me there are two dynamics at work in Paul's thinking:

1. Jews and Gentiles are now one people in Christ, and...
2. Jews still hold a distinct status in God's plan.

At first glance, these two ideas seem opposed, but I think that if you include Romans 11:25 to provide some context to 11:26,27 then you will see that these are complementary ideas.

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

The essential unity of God's people is clearly laid out in that elect Gentiles and elect Jews share the same destiny, it is simply a matter of timing as to when the salvation of each group is manifested. For now, while Israel is PARTIALLY hardened, Gentiles, and some Jews, enter the Kingdom of God.
After the full number of Gentiles has come in, then the final and complete number of Jews will come in as well.

What I think Paul is doing is affirm that the Gentile and Jews are one people, while saying it in a way that still allows for the distinctiveness of the salvation of Israel. So, in the fullest, most complete sense, when he says "ALL Israel" he means all the elect. In terms of Israel, however [and this theme of speaking about only Israel continues through verse 31] Paul means the final number of Jews who will be saved in the time which is consumated at the second coming of Christ.


Chris

Hi Chris,

I have appreciated your thoughtful post.

I understand what you are trying to say here but I do not agree that Paul is affirming that the Gentiles and Jews are one people IN THIS PASSAGE, IN THIS CONTEXT!

One thing I have learned in my 31 years as a committed Christian is THE GOLDEN RULE OF BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION, which is namely:

1. Use a LITERAL HERMENEUTIC unless the grammar, context and background of the text clearly indicate otherwise.

2. CONTEXT - always interpret within the parameters of historical context and authorial intent.

I believe that my approach is consistent with the claims and the testimony of the scriptures themselves.

The whole theme of Romans 11 revolves around the question, HAS GOD REJECTED HIS ANCIENT PEOPLE? That is, have the ancient Covenant people forfeited their right to God's Unconditional Promises in the Old Testament?

The great Apostle Paul is at pains to unmistakedly declare "NO!" - they HAVE NOT! Please read carefully, in this connection, Romans 11:11-12. The Apostle acknowledges the TEMPORARY FALL OF ISRAEL but he also affirms their FUTURE FULLNESS (the salvation of "All Israel" as given to us in Romans 11:26-27).

The present FALL and CASTING AWAY of Israel as a nation is a great mystery, in view of God's unconditional promises to them. However, Paul clearly asserts a FUTURE SALVATION OF THE JEWISH GODLY REMNANT. This will happen at the END OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION when Christ comes again to set up His Kingdom in power and great glory!

There is absolutely nothing in the biblical text to indicate that the CHURCH IS IN VIEW HERE...IN THIS PARTICULAR PASSAGE! The Full number of the Gentiles refers to the Gentiles brought into blessing through the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom. They, of course, will be included in the FIRST RESURRECTION, that is: the Resurrection of the Just but will remain ENTIRELY DISTINCT from the JEWISH GODLY REMNANT who will enter the Millennial Blessing as the Salvation of All Israel.

This, I devoutly believe, is the position of scripture.

Cheers, In Christ Craig

[proorismenos]

Craig:
Warmest greetings.

I appreciate your thoughtful response. I am aware of the scenario you envision. But again, I ask you to explain the text: look at it carefully. By your own admission, "outo" means in this manner-in this way, then Paul is saying that when the gentiles that are destined to be saved come in, in this manner "all Israel" will be saved. Paul clearly links gentiles as part of all Israel. I am not sure you have addressed this exegetical specific in your theological response.

Again, I am appreciative of the dialogue. I am somewhat surprised that you went fom Amillennialism to the extreme for of "Classical" dispensationalism. Historically, this is linked with Darby, Scofield who popularized in in his study Bible, and it was finally systematized by Lewis Sperry Chafer. Even the revisers of the New Scofield Bible (1967) made changes to the notes and relaxed the extreme two vision/plan of God leading to an earthly eternal dwelling for National Israel based on an overly literal reading of the OT, and a Heavenly eternal dwelling in Heaven for the church, made up of those baptized into the body of Christ. So you are in a very slim minority among classical dispensationalists. Most today allow for a single heavenly destiny for all the saints in all ages and have abandoned the early bifurcating position of Chafer et al., and follow the modificationsof revised dispensationalism as held by Ryrie, Walvoord, etc. popularised in the late fifties and sixties of the last century. Of course, more recently further revisions and refinements have continued leading to progressive dispensationalism. I think these latter are on the right track.

I have written a brief article, "Dispensation" in the Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Nashville, 2003. You may see more of my "appreciation" for progressive dispensationalism there.

Blessings,
TZ