The precise meaning of the Salvation of "All Israel"

[Craig kennedy]

Hello Craig!

Good to hear from you. I'm also glad the earthquake did not affect you directly. Praise be to God.

I still am in disagreement with Historical Pre-Mil.

Are you of the persuasion of Goerge Eldon Ladd? I possess his full commentary on the book of Revelation.

Chialism is bankrupt on many grounds.

Hopefully I'll start a thread on this issue for discussion. This has been discussed before.

Nicholas

Hi Nicholas,

Thank you for your greetings.

Yes, I have distanced myself from dispensational premillennialism and do not find a pre-tribulation rapture taught in the Bible.

Also, I believe that the Old Testament Saints are part of the Church in glory contra to the claims of the dispensationalists, who see ISRAEL and the CHURCH as distinct metaphysical entities. Also, I believe that the Old Testament Saints are saved by HOLY SPIRIT REGENERATION, just as we are!

My views are similar to George Eldon Ladd on these issues (in the overall sense of the system) with some differences on details.

The KEY things that have brought me to the position of HISTORIC PREMILLENNIALISM are:

1 The place of Israel in God's plan of salvation history

2 The correct exegesis of Romans 11 where Paul insists that God has not cast away His ancient people

3 The teaching of Matthew 24 of a future GREAT TRIBULATION

4 The ONE PUBLIC VISIBLE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST immediately after the Great Tribulation

5 The distinction in scripture between the Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust separated by a '1000 years'

6 The unscriptural notion of a GENERAL RESURRECTION of all people at the end

In Christ, Craig

[trav]

Hi Nicholas,

Thank you for your greetings.

Yes, I have distanced myself from dispensational premillennialism and do not find a pre-tribulation rapture taught in the Bible.

Also, I believe that the Old Testament Saints are part of the Church in glory contra to the claims of the dispensationalists, who see ISRAEL and the CHURCH as distinct metaphysical entities. Also, I believe that the Old Testament Saints are saved by HOLY SPIRIT REGENERATION, just as we are!

My views are similar to George Eldon Ladd on these issues (in the overall sense of the system) with some differences on details.

The KEY things that have brought me to the position of HISTORIC PREMILLENNIALISM are:

1 The place of Israel in God's plan of salvation history

2 The correct exegesis of Romans 11 where Paul insists that God has not cast away His ancient people

3 The teaching of Matthew 24 of a future GREAT TRIBULATION

4 The ONE PUBLIC VISIBLE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST immediately after the Great Tribulation

5 The distinction in scripture between the Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust separated by a '1000 years'

6 The unscriptural notion of a GENERAL RESURRECTION of all people at the end

In Christ, Craig

Hi Craig,

Just a couple of questions regarding Matthew 24 and your interpretation of it: Didn't Paul say that the Gospel had already been preached throughout the world in his time (Colossians 1:23)? And regarding a future "Great Tribulation", wouldn't you agree that the audience to which Jesus spoke saw that "Great Tribulation" when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. ? After all in Matthew 16:28 did Jesus not say that there were some standing there with Him who would not taste death before they saw what He spoke of in verse 27 of the same chapter? Couldn't the destruction of Jerusalem be a coming of Christ in judgement? I'm not a preterist so don't worry but have you given this any thought? John the apostle spoke of many anti-christ's who were already out there in their time. Also, in Matthew 24 Jesus used the exact same language which was used in the Old Testament (Stars will fall from the sky) and it was symbolic of rulers falling and being replaced, not a literal astronomical phenomenon. Just a thought. Let me know what you think, I have been wrestling with Eschatology for a few years and am still not convinced of any of the positions. Yet.

[Robert R. Higby]

Craig,

So glad to hear that you and your family/friends are safe from major earthquake damage or suffering!

I, for one, am happy to learn that you are at least out of pre- or mid- tribulationism. That is a more stable basis for genuine and biblical discussion in my estimation. More to come later.

--Bob

[Craig kennedy]

Hi Craig,

Just a couple of questions regarding Matthew 24 and your interpretation of it: Didn't Paul say that the Gospel had already been preached throughout the world in his time (Colossians 1:23)? And regarding a future "Great Tribulation", wouldn't you agree that the audience to which Jesus spoke saw that "Great Tribulation" when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. ? After all in Matthew 16:28 did Jesus not say that there were some standing there with Him who would not taste death before they saw what He spoke of in verse 27 of the same chapter? Couldn't the destruction of Jerusalem be a coming of Christ in judgement? I'm not a preterist so don't worry but have you given this any thought? John the apostle spoke of many anti-christ's who were already out there in their time. Also, in Matthew 24 Jesus used the exact same language which was used in the Old Testament (Stars will fall from the sky) and it was symbolic of rulers falling and being replaced, not a literal astronomical phenomenon. Just a thought. Let me know what you think, I have been wrestling with Eschatology for a few years and am still not convinced of any of the positions. Yet.

Hi trav,

This is a really good post and you have "opened up" for discussion the right questions and issues! Thank you! I like the spirit in which you write also as I am only a fellow 'wrestler for the truth' and have much to learn and grow into myself.

Let me say, that I have considered the 'partial preterist' claims (and for a short time thought they solved the problems posed by Matthew 24) but now consider that they are LOGICAL, THEOLOGICAL ANSWERS (if you get my drift) rather than strictly biblical answers derived from responsible and careful exegesis.

In Matthew 24:14 the 'gospel of the Kingdom' will be preached in all the world for a witness to all the Gentiles and then the end will come. This gospel is the EVERLASTING GOSPEL OF GOD'S GRACE which our Lord and the Apostles preached. In all ages, this ONE GOSPEL gathers God's ELECT into the ONE CHURCH. This same Gospel will be preached in shame and reproach for a witness and then the 'end' will come.

What is the 'end' here? Some have thought that it is the end of the JEWISH AGE highlighted by the fact of the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD by Titus. I am well aware of all these considerations. However, if that were so then we could no longer quote any of the verses between the seventh and fourteenth inclusive, as describing anything that has happened since the Destruction of Jerusalem. In that case, famines, wars, earthquakes and the progress of evil in the world ought to have ceased in 70AD. I do not buy this.

Also the Lord did not IMMEDIATELY COME after the the 'unequalled season of tribulation'. Not by any STRETCH of the imagination! The close of this FUTURE 'unequalled season of tribulation' is to be marked by the destruction of Antichrist, the deliverance of Israel and the resurrection of the saints.

These things did not happen in 70AD and it is my belief that these events are unquestionably future.

In Christ, Craig

[Robert R. Higby]

I, for one, cannot see at all how the 'unequaled season of tribulation' is something that refers to Palestine only. In the context, Christ referred to this as the season of persecution where family members would betray one another over the gospel, be given over to councils, etc. He even stated that we need to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us, depending on the Holy Spirit for our words, etc. So I view it as the whole age of the great apostasy after the apostolic gospel was first proclaimed (which was prophesied by Paul) & can't ever be persuaded against that conviction. With reference to those who stand for the true gospel, it includes Islamic church-state persecution, Roman Catholic church-state persecution, Protestant church-state persecution, skeptic church-state persecution, any other religious church-state & the whole bit. The sufferings in 70 A.D. of those faithful who remained in Jerusalem are only a small part of it--they disobeyed God anyway by refusing to part with their dispensationalism. The destruction of Jerusalem was certainly the outward sign of the great tribulation coming to fruition--not at all the full substance of it.

[Craig kennedy]

I, for one, cannot see at all how the 'unequaled season of tribulation' is something that refers to Palestine only. In the context, Christ referred to this as the season of persecution where family members would betray one another over the gospel, be given over to councils, etc. He even stated that we need to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us, depending on the Holy Spirit for our words, etc. So I view it as the whole age of the great apostasy after the apostolic gospel was first proclaimed (which was prophesied by Paul) & can't ever be persuaded against that conviction. With reference to those who stand for the true gospel, it includes Islamic church-state persecution, Roman Catholic church-state persecution, Protestant church-state persecution, skeptic church-state persecution, any other religious church-state & the whole bit. The sufferings in 70 A.D. of those faithful who remained in Jerusalem are only a small part of it--they disobeyed God anyway by refusing to part with their dispensationalism. The destruction of Jerusalem was certainly the outward sign of the great tribulation coming to fruition--not at all the full substance of it.

Bob writes:

"So I view it as the whole age of the great apostasy after the apostolic gospel was first proclaimed (which was prophesied by Paul) & can't ever be persuaded against that conviction."

Does this mean that you view the whole INTER-ADVENTUAL period as being the GREAT TRIBULATION?

If this is the case, can you see the problem of this being a long, ill-defined and indeterminate period of time whereas Christ seems to indicate that it has a specific beginning and a specific ending?

Your thoughts please.

In Christ, Craig

[Robert R. Higby]

Responses to Craig:

Does this mean that you view the whole INTER-ADVENTUAL period as being the GREAT TRIBULATION?

Not exactly. The great tribulation is equal to the period of the great apostasy defined by Paul, the 'rebellion' which corresponds to the historical rejection of ultimate gospel light that came through the apostolic testimony. Those who tasted of this light but spurned it (and continue to taste of it and spurn it) are the primary persecutors who attempt to align their objectives with those civil governments at enemy with God and Christ (the 'beast'). The spirit of Antichrist was already at work in the early days of gospel prosperity--but it is clear that the rebellion had not yet taken ascendancy and full prominence. This occurred after Paul's death.

If this is the case, can you see the problem of this being a long, ill-defined and indeterminate period of time whereas Christ seems to indicate that it has a specific beginning and a specific ending?

No, I can't. The beginning is the death of the apostolic testimony, the end is Christ's final return in glory to destroy the man of lawlessness. The reality Christ describes in Mt. 24:9-31 describes the unique tribulation at the end of the age; there is no indication of its length of time. Preterism is wrong in affirming that it includes only the days of the physical generation alive when Jerusalem was destroyed. This is obviously in error because Christ did not return in final glory immediately after 70 A.D. Futurism is wrong in denying that the events of 70 A.D are included--Christ made it clear that they were. The only position consistent with all of scripture on the great tribulation is the proper and biblical form of historicism.

But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mt. 24:48-50

“Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them." Mt. 25:19

It is clear to me what Christ suggests here: the length of the great tribulation or persecution on behalf of the gospel might last a long time in history. There was no promise of a 1st century return of Christ. The wicked and evil generation that shall not pass until He returns is the generation of the apostasy (for as long as it lasts), not the physical people standing there when He spoke.