An Act of Whoring

[Robert R. Higby]

Why are people surprised when an act of whoring is committed in a whorehouse?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,496087,00.html

[Calvinator]

A whore gospel is preached in there.

[Robert R. Higby]

Absolutely John!

I am just amazed at the whole-hog denial that churchianity is the great whore, in spite of evidence like this. It is sort of like the almost universal denial of man's total depravity, in spite of the obvious and continuous evils that occur in the world constantly.

[The Hawker]

I am no supporter of Robert Schuller or the Crystal Cathedral, but calling it a whorehouse does nothing to reach anyone with the truth as you see it.

[proorismenos]

Dear questioner:

You said:

I am no supporter of Robert Schuller or the Crystal Cathedral, but calling it a whorehouse does nothing to reach anyone with the truth as you see it.

Dear brother, what else can we call the adulterous gospel, which is no gospel at all, but a perversion?

God has a whole theme of spiritual adultery in His Word. He calls it whoring, His sons are only imitating Him!

Sincerely,
TZ

[The Hawker]

I give up.

[lionovjudah]

Why are people surprised when an act of whoring is committed in a whorehouse?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,496087,00.html

Schuller is my man...LOLOL

[wildboar]

I am just amazed at the whole-hog denial that churchianity is the great whore, in spite of evidence like this. It is sort of like the almost universal denial of man's total depravity, in spite of the obvious and continuous evils that occur in the world constantly.

The Gospel is certainly absent from the Christian cathedral. I am unclear as to how this incident is proof that churchianity is the great whore. "Churchianity" has never really been defined here and I don't remember the great whore being defined in Scripture as that entity in which people will shoot themselves in the head in front of.

[Highlyfavored]

I am no supporter of Robert Schuller or the Crystal Cathedral, but calling it a whorehouse does nothing to reach anyone with the truth as you see it.

Kevin, when Jesus called the Pharisees "you brood of vipers" and "you are of your father the devil" did nothing to cause the Pharisees to be drawn to Jesus, He didn't care, He always spoke the truth. The truth is never the problem. The problem is the problem.

Trying to put on a good face or purposely communicating niceties, though they may cause people to like you will not cause them to be regenerate. God knows those that are his, and they will wake up when He has determined, not by us being civil.

We don't need to sugar coat anything. Be nice, that's fine, but don't make it a requirement. God will always get everything he wants.

[lionovjudah]

The Gospel is certainly absent from the Christian cathedral. I am unclear as to how this incident is proof that churchianity is the great whore. "Churchianity" has never really been defined here and I don't remember the great whore being defined in Scripture as that entity in which people will shoot themselves in the head in front of.

You must have missed that section in the Articles of Faith.

[GraceAmbassador]

I am no supporter of Robert Schuller or the Crystal Cathedral, but calling it a whorehouse does nothing to reach anyone with the truth as you see it.

Dear Hawker:

I am making no comparisons here between the old pharisees and the Crystal Cathedral, but I believe it is proper for me to repeat part of a post I posted in another thread about "name calling":

"The declaration CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL was a tacit indictment of those pharisees that they are of "another" generation: vipers (a Hebraism for devil, considering the O.T.); then, directly disclosing "your father is the DEVIL", or YOU ARE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL.

So, this is not ad hominen as we define it because, ad hominen is defined today as an unfair acessement of the other person's character, but Jesus was DECLARING AND REVEALING WHO THEY REALLY WERE.

Paul also makes mention of this "other" generation, but I will stop here. This is really problematic for the people who believe in "passive" reprobation and that everybody is "children or generation of Adam". It is hard to say that Jesus was just using a hyperboly, or an "idiomatic expression", or just "throwing moral offenses back at the pharisees". If we do that we have to conclude that Jesus was prone to exaggerations and taught based upon a faulty foundation (such as in the parable of the Rich and Lazarus, whose mainstream interpretation is rejected by SDA's). Jesus can't lie and, by necessity, not exaggerate if we consider that exaggerations are lies.

So, His foundational support for calling the pharisees CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL, or GENERATION OF VIPERS is because they in fact were!

Some do believe that Jesus is prone to exaggerate and say things that are only "figurative" and don't mean anything. One great example is the interpretation many have of Jesus telling some: "I never knew you..."

When Jesus declared "I never knew you", He was referring to a time that He had already been glorified and it was when He was in judgment and no longer here on earth with "self-imposed" limitations. He is speaking as GOD ALMIGHTY in the judgment seat in heaven. If God is omniscient, and knows it all and all, how can He declare I NEVER KNEW YOU?"

I fully understand your concern but is it a misplaced one. Although Jesus knew the hearts of men, thus making Him able to know who were not not the generation of the devil, He also told us about "teachers" of His day and our day:

"Ye shall know them by their fruits".

I often affirm that God did not equip anyone with an ELECTOMETER, whereby we can know for sure whom the ELECT are. Nevertheless, I do believe that HE DID equip us with a FRUITMETER whereby we can know what kind of fruit one organization of teachers produces to determine if they are of the "whoring" kind or not.

Those who cannot define for themselves and, mainly, IDENTIFY churchianity without someone else's definition, are in dire need of being equipped with the aforementioned FRUITMETER... Perhaps such equipment is acquired only at an older age since it may be too harsh for the young.

I am not defending Bob here (although I would gladly do it all the time, incessantly if he ever needed it) but this sole act of suicide is not the ONLY, or the unique reason Bob calls this event at Schuller's organization "an act of whoring". There is history there, including but not limited some of Schuller's writings, that demonstrate that they have "committed adultery" with popularity inasmuch that they have abandoned some key elements of Gospel preaching.

Has anyone here been to Crystal Cathedral or followed assiduously their telecast or read ALL Schuller's books? Try it and perhaps you will not be far from a very strong negative opinion about them. If not, fine. But someone here does have a strong negative opinion about them based upon their history and it is not wrong at all to convey it!

They are striving to come back though. The "fired" son of Schuller preached a couple of times before he was yanked from the pulpit at Crystal Cathedral and actually mentioned the words SIN, CROSS AND SAVIOR. Imagine that!

Milt

[The Hawker]

As I said before, I am no fan of Robert Schuller and his particular message. It would be fair to say that all ministers hold to doctrines that are not true to a certain extent, because no one has all of the truth. This is why I find the idea of being harshly critical something that I cannot condone.

It is all very well saying that Jesus called folks a brood of vipers, but that was Jesus. Jesus is God, and He knows everything. We are on a massively different level to God. The bible tells us that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and that His ways are higher than our ways.

I know that this forum likes to concentrate its energies on predestination and related doctrines. As much as I believe in predestination, I think it is an issue best left in the hands of God. He knows whom He has predestined, we do not, so what is the point of going on and on about it?

Our task here on earth is to take the love of Jesus to the masses. Just showing love to our fellow man is what the gospel teaches us to do. Might it not be better to discuss issues on how we can serve our God and Saviour in a way that pleases Him, than sweating over people that we should leave alone and let God deal with?

Had we not better pray for people whom we perceive to be in darkness than be bringing the church of God through the mud by our constant criticisms, when we ourselves are not perfect.

If we do not display the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives, we had better not call ourselves Christians. It is not just about a mental assent to the truth. The devil knows the truth, and won't submit to the God of heaven.

We have to repent of our sins. God didn't save us for us to carry on like the world. He saved us that we would be a new creation now. A new creation that obeys the will of the Father.

Lovingly pointing out the faults of individuals and bringing correction is the right way to go about reforming the church. We have to remember that God is not the accuser of the brethren. The devil is. This is something we need to learn.

Election of whoever is decided by God, and not by anyone else. We had better not write anyone off, whether they are Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Reformed, Pentecostal, Charismatic or any other denomination, because I believe that God's elect will be found in each and everyone of these places, whether I agree with all of their beliefs or not.

I have said my piece. If you want to carry on passing judgement on folk because they don't hold to your particular beliefs, that is your perogative.

When I moved away from this forum at the end of October last year, I knew that my heart had been hardened against any Christian who would disagree with me, but when I read the scriptures, I saw a gospel of love and mercy that set me free from a hardened heart.

Ultimately, I have been hurt by Christians in the distant and recent past. I sense there are members of this forum who are in the same situation as me.

I am praying that the Lord will heal my broken heart so that I can serve Him faithfully, and not be wanting to be on the move all the time.

I pray also for anyone who has been hurt by churches on this forum, that the Lord will heal their broken hearts.

May the Lord Bless you all!

Love in Christ,

Kevin

[wildboar]

The Pharisees were self-righteous. Such people need hardcore law preaching and that's just what Jesus gave them. I don't think that the way he acted towards them necessarily means that they were all eternally damned. Paul was certainly a Pharisee.

[GraceAmbassador]

The Pharisees were self-righteous. Such people need hardcore law preaching and that's just what Jesus gave them. I don't think that the way he acted towards them necessarily means that they were all eternally damned. Paul was certainly a Pharisee.

Good thinking!
Except that Jesus called and identified that particular group of pharisees, the ones He directly addressed, as having the devil as their father, not the Pharisees without exception. But then again, you say in the quote above:

"...necessarily means that they were all eternally damned." (emphasis is mine).

[Mickey]

Jesus did call Peter "Satan".

That's all I have to contribute.

Oh, I thought this was another discussion...it still may fit though.

[rlhuckle]

Hi Kevin,

I know we haven't spoken much on the forum but I felt the need to respond to the points in your post. I have responded to these same points in many other posts made by individuals (mostly on other forums)--some who have been called out of churchianity and others who have merely attempted to defend it.

It is hard to let go of the bondage these institutions impose upon their followers and truly break out into the freedom in Christ we all have as God's chosen. It is hard to let go of the worldly definitions that these institutions condition their followers to believe and adopt truly Scriptural definitions. This takes time and study (and for me much discussion and hard examination of my own beliefs and arguments).

It is all very well saying that Jesus called folks a brood of vipers, but that was Jesus. Jesus is God, and He knows everything. We are on a massively different level to God. The bible tells us that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and that His ways are higher than our ways.

Good point, but Scripture also teaches:

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I know that this forum likes to concentrate its energies on predestination and related doctrines. As much as I believe in predestination, I think it is an issue best left in the hands of God. He knows whom He has predestined, we do not, so what is the point of going on and on about it?

God's choice in eternity past is a strong foundation! Ephesians 1 is a glorious testimony to the gifts that flow from it.

Our task here on earth is to take the love of Jesus to the masses. Just showing love to our fellow man is what the gospel teaches us to do. Might it not be better to discuss issues on how we can serve our God and Saviour in a way that pleases Him, than sweating over people that we should leave alone and let God deal with?

Is not proclaiming the true gospel taking the love of Jesus to the masses? Is not rebuking and reproving error taking the love of Jesus to the masses? Does not the performance of these two things please God (as He is the one ordaining, equipping, and giving the grace necessary to accomplish these things)?

Had we not better pray for people whom we perceive to be in darkness than be bringing the church of God through the mud by our constant criticisms, when we ourselves are not perfect.

Yes, we should pray for all whom God has and will call. We also should not confuse the church of God with the church of men. The church of men has always been in the mud--as God ordains.

If we do not display the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives, we had better not call ourselves Christians. It is not just about a mental assent to the truth. The devil knows the truth, and won't submit to the God of heaven.

If one is truly given saving faith (mentally assents to the truth), the effect is ALWAYS spiritual fruit--so it is "just" about a mental assent to the truth (saving faith).

The devil has no choice but to submit to God--ALL that God has ordained for him to do. What the devil actually believes has nothing to do with it.

What people actually believe has no affect on their eternal status either--what people believe (truly mentally assent to) flows FROM their eternal status (in Christ or no)--not vice versa.

We have to repent of our sins.

Or what? It is my understanding that true repentance is an EFFECT, not a cause.....so maybe this would be better stated as that one "has to be regenerated?"

God didn't save us for us to carry on like the world. He saved us that we would be a new creation now. A new creation that obeys the will of the Father.

Don't ALL THINGS happen for good to those who love the Lord and are the called? Does not "all things" include all things? Doesn't God's purposes include hardening the reprobate? Doesn't God's purposes include sin in the lives of His own?

If the elect never sinned, wouldn't it be human nature for them to begin to believe that they were personally responsible for being such "good" human beings? Since sin happens, doesn't this mean that sin is in accord with the will of the Father?

Lovingly pointing out the faults of individuals and bringing correction is the right way to go about reforming the church. We have to remember that God is not the accuser of the brethren. The devil is. This is something we need to learn.

There is a difference between accusing the brethren (pointing to their individual sin in a hypocritical manner) and standing for the truth and against false teaching.

Some need yanking out of the fire. The reason reproving, rebuking and exhorting is necessary is BECAUSE of our love for the truth and of God and of His own.

Vincent Cheung spoke of this in Human Struggle and Divine Sovereignty:

Scripture instructs us to "speak the truth in love" (Ephesians 4:15). Under the tutelage of
Satan, many Christians have reduced this love to mean the use of nonabrasive words
spoken in an effeminate tone, although in their hypocrisy, they would lash out at anyone
who thinks that love means something else. The verse is telling us to speak the truth to
people because we love them, and not that we should do it in such a feeble manner that
we might as well not say anything. Indeed, in helping people to become "sound in the
faith," sometimes we must "rebuke them sharply" (Titus 1:13). The false interpretation of
Ephesians 4:15 would render it unacceptable to practice Titus 1:13 on any occasion – it
would make the Bible contradict itself. Thus biblical inerrancy itself is compromised
when Christians adopt the world's idea of love and hold it as a nonnegotiable definition in
exegesis.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Election of whoever is decided by God, and not by anyone else. We had better not write anyone off, whether they are Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Reformed, Pentecostal, Charismatic or any other denomination, because I believe that God's elect will be found in each and everyone of these places, whether I agree with all of their beliefs or not.

I heartily agree; there are elect individuals that God is leading out from all places; however I think it is our duty to condemn the institutions (and those individuals who lead them) for promoting their false doctrines and to label them for what they are. Paul calls them accursed.

I have said my piece. If you want to carry on passing judgement on folk because they don't hold to your particular beliefs, that is your perogative.

1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

All of us must measure the teachings of men against the truth of Scripture as the Holy Spirit leads. Each is moved to respond in their own way as God has ordained. This is the freedom we have in Christ.

[MCoving]

I wanted to add just a couple of thoughts I really enjoy reading your response Milt and agree whole heartedly with it. But to add some of my thoughts to what has been said, I want to clarify that we don't condemn anyone, we being most the people I personally know here on the forum. It is true that we do not know whom God has predestined to be His sons and daughters, however we can discern those who are false teachers, preaching a false Gospel. We can discern those whom at this point in time are NOT following Christ. There is nothing wrong with knowing who are wolves in sheeps clothing, and who are truly God's sheep at this point in time. Those wolves in sheeps clothing could very well be Gods elect, but at this point in time they are against God's Gospel, they are against everything we believe in and walking in darkness. Just like Jesus we can speak out for the Truth and against false teachings. What Bob has done here is just that, spoken out against false teachers and false Gospels. He has brought to the light that which is false, and once hidden in darkness. I think it is very important for Gods children to be aware of the false teachings and false teachers out there. We judge what is true and false so that we are not decieved. The Bible says to be careful of wolves in sheeps clothing, be careful of false prophets SO THAT you will not be decieved, be careful not to lead children astray. It is VERY IMPORTANT to speak for what is true, and to speak out against false teachings.

It is correct that God's children will come from many different backgrounds and previous false religions. God's children can also be decieved for a time, but will one day come to know the True Gospel but until they confess a belief in the True Gospel and their desire to follow Christ we treat them as nonbrethren. You (Hawker) are right that some may know of predestination and the truth, like the devil or demons but they dont follow Christ, or believe that they need to sumbit to the Truth. Sure someone can know of something but not believe in it. However, anyone who believes in the Gospel and follows Christ is my brethren. I know who are the family of God because of their belief in the True Gospel and desire to follow Christ. I do NOT judge whether someone is a child of God by the works they do, when I think of Fruit meter like Milt said I think of judging them by their Gospel they believe in and whether they desire to follow that. Knowing the Gospel and BELIEVING the Gospel are TWO different things to me.. someone can know about the laws of the city like going the speed limit, or not killing someone but NOT believe in it. Its one thing to Know something and another to believe in it. So those who believe the True Gospel are saved and my brethren, those who do not are not considered my brethren at this point in time. And I will do anything I can to share with them the Gospel message, and expose the lies that they have been believing. Because I know that is the right thing to do, and that is exactly what Jesus did. It is not unloving to tell someone they are deceived, if I was deceived which I was at one point I would want someone to tell me that. Course all is done with gentleness and care for the other person, we are to love one another. But love doesn't mean sugar coating things, or just letting one live in a sea of lies the rest of their life. Be true, Truth is love. Lies are evil.

[GraceAmbassador]

Jesus did call Peter "Satan".

That's all I have to contribute.

Oh, I thought this was another discussion...it still may fit though.

Good point but check again!

Va de retro Satan, "Get behind me Satan" was spoken of the one "inspiring" Peter just as much as he blessed Peter for receiving the revelation of whom Jesus was.

[Brandan Kraft]

Gal 5:12, (NASB), I wish that those who are troubling you [Brandan: with circumcision!] would even mutilate themselves.

Harsh? Absolutely!

[wildboar]

Except that Jesus called and identified that particular group of pharisees, the ones He directly addressed, as having the devil as their father, not the Pharisees without exception.

By their statements they were showing their allegiance to the devil. By nature we are all children of the devil. Jesus rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind me Satan!" Later Peter was restored so its clear that Peter was not eternally damned.