Paradox Theology

[The Hawker]

Around November 2008, I started a thread called "Theological Controversies and Disputes", where at one stage I supported paradox theology, which basically states that two possible opposite or contradictory proposals can be given, and both be true, but put across as separate entities.

For example in some scriptures, the proposition is given that God chooses His Elect from before the foundation of the world.

Another proposition is that man can choose whom He serves. There is a verse of scripture that says, "Choose this day whom you will serve.".

Which proposition is true? Are both of them true? Do we have to hold them up as separate propositions in the first place?

For the record, my answer is:

NO, I do not believe in paradox theology. I believe that it leaves people in confusion as to what God's will in a matter really is. It leaves us with a God of mystery, when in reality, in the scriptures, we are told that various "mysteries" are revealed. We are told in other scriptures that there are things that have not been revealed to the wise and prudent, but unto babes.

Regarding the two propositions above:
When it comes to me "choosing" whom I serve, other verses propose that God is in full control of the decisions "I" make. To quote scripture, "He knows who are His.". These two propositions are not in the least bit separate. They are really one proposition in God's TOTAL control.

Enjoy!

Blessings to you ALWAYS,

Kevin.

[Whammer]

God Alone is the creator of the whole unchangeable Movie (ALL creation), He made the actors, He gave them their scripts, He designed the set, He put everything in order, His power and wisdom can not be fathomed by "that which He made". He determined the outcome (end) from the beginning. (1st) He determined all things in between as well. He is able (ALL Powerful) to make sure the movie He made, can not/will not be changed, every detail is of His design, is exactly as He Wrote the script. He designed many of the actors to be totally blind blasphemous fools to shake their fists at Him, since He also wrote Himself into the script, beginning to end. Only The True God is The Ultimate Cause of ALL causes. The fools will think themselves wise, as they follow the script as perfectly as all the rest of the scripted things do to, even those He Father's.

[Mickey]

God is my Pilot.

[wildboar]

I do not place my faith in paradox theology nor do I place my faith in causality.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.And one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I'm not trying to be clever or funny. I just believe it is very important what we "believe in." I do not place my faith in a theological system but in Christ and His work for me.

Of course if we meditate and study the Trinity, if we maintain an orthodox position we have to accept some mystery--some paradox--statements that are not contradictory but are impossible to reconcile in our minds. We simply cannot conceive a single being that is three persons and all attempts to have it make sense in our mind either deny the oneness or the threeness. We should not deny other teachings of the Bible either at the expense of our favorite doctrines.

[The Hawker]

Thank you for sharing Charles.

I do not place my faith in paradox theology nor do I place my faith in causality.

I'm not trying to be clever or funny. I just believe it is very important what we "believe in." I do not place my faith in a theological system but in Christ and His work for me.

Of course if we meditate and study the Trinity, if we maintain an orthodox position we have to accept some mystery--some paradox--statements that are not contradictory but are impossible to reconcile in our minds. We simply cannot conceive a single being that is three persons and all attempts to have it make sense in our mind either deny the oneness or the threeness. We should not deny other teachings of the Bible either at the expense of our favorite doctrines.

[lionovjudah]

You should have only allowed one answer for this poll Hawk!!!! You would have the same result if you asked Cheney if he prefers a tax break for the rich or a tax increase!!!!

How about the next poll to be:

Do you believe in the Absolute predestination of all things?

[gerhard]

Around November 2008, I started a thread called "Theological Controversies and Disputes", where at one stage I supported paradox theology, which basically states that two possible opposite or contradictory proposals can be given, and both be true, but put across as separate entities.

For example in some scriptures, the proposition is given that God chooses His Elect from before the foundation of the world.

Another proposition is that man can choose whom He serves. There is a verse of scripture that says, "Choose this day whom you will serve.".

Which proposition is true? Are both of them true? Do we have to hold them up as separate propositions in the first place?

I would define paradox theology as man's inability to comprehend hidden mysteries of God. For example, God is righteous when, of His own sovereign will, He makes us necessarily damnable. God is merciful when, of His own sovereign will, He saves few and damns many.

[Robert R. Higby]

Some of us do not believe 'mystery' and 'paradox' are equivalent at all. Mystery is strictly related to what has been and remains UNREVEALED by God (which all of us affirm); paradox theology relates to alleged inconsistencies affirmed as 'tension' in what is REVEALED. The latter notion is shunned entirely by those of us who deny paradox theology; we affirm that in God's revelation there are no inconsistencies or true paradoxes of logic.

[wildboar]

I think we've had this conversation before but the term paradox can be used to refer to both real and apparent contradictions. So it would seem better as long as it is accepted that there are things that we can't quite completely sort out in our brains, to refer to actual contradictions as contradiction theology rather than paradox theology.

[GraceAmbassador]

I think we've had this conversation before but the term paradox can be used to refer to both real and apparent contradictions. So it would seem better as long as it is accepted that there are things that we can't quite completely sort out in our brains, to refer to actual contradictions as contradiction theology rather than paradox theology.

Good! But allow me to add my 1/2 a cent worth here:

The passages where "we can't quite completely sort out in our brains", if essential to our relationship with God, and our brethren, should not be accepted as something that "we can't quite completely sort out in our brains". I don't believe that God has ever left anyone in the dark about the things that are essential to our relationship with Him and our brethren. When something that "we can't quite completely sort out in our brains" appears, our overall sense of need to grow in the "knowledge of Him" has to be turned on and we have to "claim" (if I may use this worn out by the Charismatic term) Jesus' promise that "the Holy Spirit will teach us all things".

What has happened with theologians of the past as well as today is a sort of "theological comfort zone" wherein they just shrug their shoulders and shout the buzz word "paradox" instead of following Paul's exhortation to Timothy in 2 Tim 2:15.

Unfortunately most people today do live in the comfort zone of theology, as a theological predilection, have a distaste for firm and strong positions, and are that way mostly as a desire for popularity and notoriety; these are too quick to raise the banner of paradox.

"We can't quite completely sort out in our brains" is a very nice answer to difficult questions in theology and I accept its principle. But thank God that that, whatever denial we may have that our brains may still be bound to whatever vestige of the natural man remains in us, the Bible does guarantee that the Spiritual man will understand the things of God. This is not dualism; this is just raising the bar as to how quick we will confess that something that God revealed to us is something that "we can't quite completely sort out in our brains".

When we simply accept "we can't quite completely sort out in our brains" we end up with simplifications such as "freewill", the "four spiritual laws", "God loves the whole world", "He's got the whole world in His hands" and the the message of the Gospel is cheapened to a near "lullaby" or nursery rhyme.

The Gospel is indeed simple; but SIMPLE in God's standards of revelation not our rush to limit ourselves and others screaming STOP, THIS IS PARADOX...

Can anyone quote us an example of passages that "we can't quite completely sort out in our brains" so we can be bold and courageous to check it that is so by utilizing the resources in this Forum? Is it God's desire that we grow in the knowledge of Him?

Well, I have not posted for over two weeks, so... I can afford to be long.

Milt

[wildboar]

The Scriptures distinguish between what God has revealed which belong to us and to our children and the secret things that belong to God alone. We can know what God has revealed to us "God is one being," "God is three persons." We cannot fully understand what that means. We can affirm that it is true but what exactly that means belongs to the secret things that we are not permitted to know at least at this time. I believe the same is true with soteriological issues. It's easier with them because we are not dealing in a completely direct way with the doctrine of God to devise some system and convince ourselves that we have it all figured out. We can bend a text here and there and ignore texts or explain them away. The texts we choose to use and the texts that we bend will depend on our own inclinations. But what we should do instead is affirm what Scripture affirms and admit that some details (probably a lot of details) belong to that which is secret/hidden. That shouldn't cause us to be lazy. There is plenty that is revealed and the Scriptures serve as a great comfort not to teach us about abstract theological concepts but to comfort us with Christ.

Recently in the PRC a minister ran into a great deal of trouble simply because he wanted to home school his kids. He recognized some real problems with immorality in the PR schools and his wife is a trained educator and he is a very good teacher himself. However many in the leadership and laity in the PRC are convinced that you have a responsibility especially as a minister to send your children to a PR school. Obviously you can't find a particular Scripture text that even addresses the issue. I believe that whether you homeschool or send your kids to a public school or a Christian school needs to be decided on a case by case basis. But the PRC has been convinced of its position by making a rather long series of logical arguments from the teachings of Scripture. They claim to be following God's revealed will but I think it's clear that God has made no such statement. I don't say this to bash the PRC but just by way of example how people can reach a particular point where they teach something that is nowhere taught in Scripture based on a long series of logical deductions. Somewhere along the way they messed up as we all mess up because we are sinners. We can have great confidence in what God has revealed. We cannot have that same confidence in our inferences and deductions.

[GraceAmbassador]

...We can bend a text here and there and ignore texts or explain them away. The texts we choose to use and the texts that we bend will depend on our own inclinations.

Is that a confession?

Just kidding!

[The Hawker]

The Scriptures distinguish between what God has revealed which belong to us and to our children and the secret things that belong to God alone. We can know what God has revealed to us "God is one being," "God is three persons." We cannot fully understand what that means. We can affirm that it is true but what exactly that means belongs to the secret things that we are not permitted to know at least at this time. I believe the same is true with soteriological issues. It's easier with them because we are not dealing in a completely direct way with the doctrine of God to devise some system and convince ourselves that we have it all figured out. We can bend a text here and there and ignore texts or explain them away. The texts we choose to use and the texts that we bend will depend on our own inclinations. But what we should do instead is affirm what Scripture affirms and admit that some details (probably a lot of details) belong to that which is secret/hidden. That shouldn't cause us to be lazy. There is plenty that is revealed and the Scriptures serve as a great comfort not to teach us about abstract theological concepts but to comfort us with Christ.

Recently in the PRC a minister ran into a great deal of trouble simply because he wanted to home school his kids. He recognized some real problems with immorality in the PR schools and his wife is a trained educator and he is a very good teacher himself. However many in the leadership and laity in the PRC are convinced that you have a responsibility especially as a minister to send your children to a PR school. Obviously you can't find a particular Scripture text that even addresses the issue. I believe that whether you homeschool or send your kids to a public school or a Christian school needs to be decided on a case by case basis. But the PRC has been convinced of its position by making a rather long series of logical arguments from the teachings of Scripture. They claim to be following God's revealed will but I think it's clear that God has made no such statement. I don't say this to bash the PRC but just by way of example how people can reach a particular point where they teach something that is nowhere taught in Scripture based on a long series of logical deductions. Somewhere along the way they messed up as we all mess up because we are sinners. We can have great confidence in what God has revealed. We cannot have that same confidence in our inferences and deductions.

Well Charles, we have presented our evidence and our views based on the scriptures. It is true to say that we don't know all that God knows, but we do know what God reveals. There are scriptures in the bible that tell us certain mysteries are revealed.

When it comes to us for example working out whose responsibility it is to live a holy life, we have to work out whom all the glory belongs to if our "responsibility" is fulfilled. If it is truly my responsibility as a number of fullerites claim, I want all the glory. However, we see in the bible that God will not share His glory with another. As this is so, may the Lord work on our hearts that His holiness would be continually manifest in us! This is where the Glory of God is revealed.

The bible tells us that without Christ, we can do nothing. We are told that the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God.
How does one get rid of a carnal mind without the intervention of a Holy Triune God, who gives out His grace in good measure.

The fact that the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God, makes the idea of one being "able" to choose God absolutely ridiculous. I love the high doctrines of Calvinism!

Blessings to you,

Kevin.

[wildboar]

Well Charles, we have presented our evidence and our views based on the scriptures. It is true to say that we don't know all that God knows, but we do know what God reveals. There are scriptures in the bible that tell us certain mysteries are revealed.

When it comes to us for example working out whose responsibility it is to live a holy life, we have to work out whom all the glory belongs to if our "responsibility" is fulfilled. If it is truly my responsibility as a number of fullerites claim, I want all the glory. However, we see in the bible that God will not share His glory with another. As this is so, may the Lord work on our hearts that His holiness would be continually manifest in us! This is where the Glory of God is revealed.

The bible tells us that without Christ, we can do nothing. We are told that the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God.
How does one get rid of a carnal mind without the intervention of a Holy Triune God, who gives out His grace in good measure.

The fact that the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God, makes the idea of one being "able" to choose God absolutely ridiculous. I love the high doctrines of Calvinism!

I agree with everything you said up until the last sentence. I believe that Calvinism is guilty of going beyond and at time contradicting what God has revealed in order to try to have everything make sense in the Calvinist's head. Certainly our salvation is all of God but our damnation is due to our sins.

[Robert R. Higby]

I believe that Calvinism is guilty of going beyond and at times contradicting what God has revealed in order to try to have everything make sense in the Calvinist's head. Certainly our salvation is all of God but our damnation is due to our sins.

We have presented time and again why we believe the scriptures teach God to be the ultimate cause of sin and damnation--as He is the ultimate cause of all things. The cause of damnation belongs strictly to the area of revealed truth, not to mystery or the unrevealed. Damnation is caused by God unto His glory but is also deserved on account of sinful rebellion.

On this matter the debate with us will go on endlessly, if it is being affirmed that damnation is something caused only by personal sin and not by God.

[The Hawker]

I agree with everything you said up until the last sentence. I believe that Calvinism is guilty of going beyond and at time contradicting what God has revealed in order to try to have everything make sense in the Calvinist's head. Certainly our salvation is all of God but our damnation is due to our sins.

I find it strange that you say you agree with everything I said until the last sentence, because everything I said prior to the last sentence is my calvinism. But never mind Charles, your view is your view. We accept that. I would pray that the Lord will reveal these things to you.

It is interesting that you put the soul responsibility for our sins on the sinner only, and for sure, the sinner is accountable for his/her sins, which will send them to hell apart from the grace of God. Is God not Sovereign over the damnation of souls too? We have to remember the other side of this too Charles.

When Pharaoh would not let the people go, who hardened Pharaoh's heart? When we answer this question truthfully, we can really know God in His fullness, and not see Him as some sort of cuddly toy, where we all say "awwwwww" or a Santa Claus figure, who incidentally only gives out the presents in response to us being "good" as the legend goes.

Isn't the doctrine of Santa Claus one of the nastiest ever? I think so. I used to believe in him. He was my god in December at one stage many moons ago.

Thank God for the truth of God in Heaven who is Sovereign and Mighty in Power, who is in control to the uttermost. This is the God and Saviour I believe upon!

The Lord Bless You ALWAYS!

Bro. Kevin.

[wildboar]

I find it strange that you say you agree with everything I said until the last sentence, because everything I said prior to the last sentence is my calvinism.

It is in agreement with Calvinism but it is not unique to Calvinism so it's not really strange. What you said would find disagreement with Roman Catholics and much modern evangelicalism but it is not uniquely Calvinistic.

It is interesting that you put the soul responsibility for our sins on the sinner only, and for sure, the sinner is accountable for his/her sins, which will send them to hell apart from the grace of God. Is God not Sovereign over the damnation of souls too? We have to remember the other side of this too Charles.

When Pharaoh would not let the people go, who hardened Pharaoh's heart? When we answer this question truthfully, we can really know God in His fullness, and not see Him as some sort of cuddly toy, where we all say "awwwwww" or a Santa Claus figure, who incidentally only gives out the presents in response to us being "good" as the legend goes.

I place the responsibility for the sins upon the sinner because that's where the Scriptures place it. God strengthened Pharaoh's will. Pharaoh was already opposed to God. Pharaoh was born with original sin and he had hardened his own heart. God showed the folly of Pharaoh by further hardening Pharaoh's heart. All of this is in harmony with confessional Calvinism as well but not unique to it. We don't need to create a false dichotomy between the false Santa Claus god and the false fatalist god. In this particular instance I'm actually in agreement with Calvinism.

[The Hawker]

Thank you for your contribution Charles.

[gerhard]

It is interesting that you put the soul responsibility for our sins on the sinner only, and for sure, the sinner is accountable for his/her sins, which will send them to hell apart from the grace of God. Is God not Sovereign over the damnation of souls too?

Yes. According to His sovereign will alone, God creates men conceived in sin and damnable. Is God, therefore, in some way responsible for the sin and/or damnation of men? No! The creature never judges the Creator. I suggest you reconsider Paradox Theology with a humbler view of the power of human reason.

[The Hawker]

Yes. According to His sovereign will alone, God creates men conceived in sin and damnable. Is God, therefore, in some way responsible for the sin and/or damnation of men? No! The creature never judges the Creator. I suggest you reconsider Paradox Theology with a humbler view of the power of human reason.

Thank you Dan.