What eschatological doctrine do you agree with?

[Brandan Kraft]

Just curious as to what people believe. This is a little poll just for fun.

[Fledge]

I'm not really sure. There are aspects of more than one point of view that I agree with to one degree or another. Truth be known, there are probably some aspects of all points of view that I would either agree with or at least see the point of.

SO, I'm still "undecided".

I have kinda considered myself a "pan-millenial". Meaning...I'll just wait and see how it all "pans" out!!

[KnightCommander]

I believe in pre Trib

[Sweet_Release]

I am pre-trib. i believe that there will be a rapture(of the Bride of Christ) take place before Great Tribulation takes place. It is supported by Scripture as well.


that all i have to say at the moment.

[Andrew]

DEFINITELY a Pre-Trib...and I'm taking the first bus out!

[Odyssey]

I think you all can tell by now that I am a full fledged believer in Covenant Eschatology (aka Preterist)! I used to be a Pre-trib dispy, but I just couldn't get around the clear teaching of a first century coming of Jesus without changing the meaning of plain words!

Grace to you all,

jak

[Parousia70]

P-R-E-T-E-R-I-S-T !!!

Was a Dispensational Futurist for 18 years but after endless hours of prayerful study,about 2 years ago, I came to accept the truth of the Past Fulfillment of Christs "return" for much of the same reasons as my friend Jak above.

I could no longer in good conscience twist words and phrases used to describe the "2nd coming" such as "Soon, Shortly, At Hand, In yet a very little while, about to come, at the door, will not tarry, some of you standing here will not taste death till you see the son of man come, This generation shall not pass, you will not have finished going over the cities of Israel till the son of man be come, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum", and stretch them to mean 2000+ years without realizing I was butchering Gods word to fit my preconcieved notions.

When I found out my concept of the 2nd coming didn't fit the Word of God, I chose to change my concept to fit the Word, instead of Changing Gods word to fit my concept as I finally realized I had been doing for nearly 2 decades!!

One bit of research that helped me tremendously, was that I scoured the Bible to see If God ever failed to fulfill a promise within the Time limits He himself set for it's fulfillment. I found that He NEVER EVER fulfilled a promise outside of the Plain, human time parameters He himself set. Not once, EVER. And in EVERY instance He put a time limit on a prophesy's fulfillment, it was given and Understood by How time relates to MAN, not how time relates to God, and was fulfilled thusly. The 3rd day = The 3rd day,7 days = 7 days, 40 days & Nights = 40 days & nights, 70 years = 70 years etc , etc, etc.......

When God says Soon, he means soon in Human terms. He can be trusted. He tells the truth.

Jesus Christ returned, as promised, on schedule, "Shortly" after it was predicted 2000 years ago, and is present with us fully, totally, today and evermore, a world without end, AMEN!!

Peace in the Reigning Lord,
Peter

[Kings Kid]

I have not spent alot of time studying "Eschatology", but of the studying I have done, "Amillenialism" seems to make the most sense. But I still have alot of studying to do in that area, so I will say my support is soft at this point.

[Brandan Kraft]

I am partly amill and partly preterist... I'm still a futurist though, in that I still believe there will be a resurrection and the 2nd coming of Christ. However, I believe the tribulation took place at the destruction of the temple..... I'm amill, because I believe the 1000 year reign of Christ is taking place now.....

[Fledge]

I haven't studied it in detail enough to have made up my mind totally.
There are aspects to several of the "beliefs systems" (for lack of a better term) that I can see the point of them and maybe even agree with them to a degree. Except the preterist point of view. That's basically pretty new to me, so I have no clue about that one.

So right now I am undecided.

[Odyssey]

Fledge,

The preterist postition is close to that of the postmill or the amill. While those two still hold to a future consummation of things, preterists hold that those things took place in the first century.

Grace to you,

jak

[Parousia70]

Originally posted by kermie
I am partly amill and partly preterist... I'm still a futurist though, in that I still believe there will be a resurrection and the 2nd coming of Christ. However, I believe the tribulation took place at the destruction of the temple..... I'm amill, because I believe the 1000 year reign of Christ is taking place now.....

Kermie, Just out of curiousity, If you believe the tribulation took place between 66 & 70 AD but the second coming is still future to us today, what do you do with these verses?:

Matt 24:29-31
. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Can "a thousand years is as a day" really be an answer for the word "Immediately"??

I don't think so, but perhaps you may know something I don't.....

Peace,
Peter

[Debbiek]

I don't even know what half those terms mean. But I know I'm pretrib/ premil. I spent a lot of years studying most all religions, cults, etc. I've read the Bible of course, the quran, cult books, etc. They all lead back to Christ. My view of the second coming is different than most pretrib in that my view is that there will be no rapture saving Christians before the trib. He comes at the 7th trumpet.

[prophet4real]

The Interlinear Bible

Daniel 9: 24- 27 Then know and understand from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah the Prince shall be weeks seven and weeks sixty two.Again it shall be built with plaza and ditch even in the affliction of the times. And after weeks sixty and two shall be cut off Messiah. And is not to Him and the city and the sanctuary shall destroy the people of a prince coming. And its end shall be with the flood and until the end shall be war; are determined desolations.

and He shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week and in the half of the week he shall make cease sacrifice and offering and upon a wing as abominations a destroyer, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the destroyer.

Daniel gives a time line of seventy weeks for this task to be accomplished. He then records the angel,s message in a devision of the seventy weeks. 7 weeks - 62 weeks - 1 week.
7x 7= 49, 62x 7= 434, 1x 7= 7. 49+ 434+ 7= 490 total years allocated to the fulfillment of this prophecy.
The first 483 years are historically accurate and there is little or no debate. From the decree of Cyrus to The Messiah the Prince is 483 years. Then after the 483 years the Messiah will be cut off. The prophetic clock stops far a while. We know that the birth of Jesus was 483 years after the decree. Depending on ones source of information, Jesus lived for another 27 to forty years after that. Most believe Jesus was Crucified 33 A.D. That would make Him 39 or 40 years of age. The temple was destroyed 70 A.D. That was 37 years later.

The destruction of Jerusalem is not in view here . It is the Messiah destroying the comming prince. Not the other way around. The thing being destroyed is an it , not a who. My I suggest a religion and not a person. Its end shallbe with a flood anduntil the end shall be war;desolations are determined.

The He thatshall confirm the covenant with the many is the Messiah. Not the antichrist (prince), He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant for 1 week (7 years) The covenant that was confirmed. The Covenant of Grace that He sealed with His own blood.

Jesus was crucified half way through His minestry and rose again causeing the sacrifice and offerings to cease.The spiritual always leads the physical so the temple itself was physically destroyed 37 years later. As an abomination a desacration has been place in the temple area. It has been there sense 640 A.D. There it will remain untell the end.That which has been decreed will be pored out on the destroyer.Any one heard of Armageddon?

[prophet4real]

Kermit, Can I vote for none of the above?

[Debbiek]

in answer to your question, YES, I think everyone in here has heard of Armegeddon, & I don't thiink I will be around then so I'm not real worried about it. So what category do you place yourself I wonder by your post? LOve, Debbie

[Odyssey]

Why is there a gap in your timing?

Grace to you,

jak

[Parousia70]

The 490 years have no gaps, gimicks or elasticity.
They ran consecutive from the decree of Artaxerxes in 458BC to34AD.
Ezra 7:12 - 26 Artaxerxes makes the decree.
* The math: 483-458 = 25, but there was no 0 AD nor 0 BC, so that makes 26 AD.
* What happened in 26 AD?
Mark 1:9-10 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Messiah the Prince came and the Spirit, like a dove, descended upon Him. So began the ministry of Jesus Christ.

What is 483 + 7? 490 years. Simple.

Jesus' first coming and ministry on this earth, through to His death, burial and resurrection fulfilled the 70th week of Daniel.

The big question comes from verse 26:

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Who is The Prince?
A big argument is over who this prince is. In the 1769 KJV, the first prince is capitalized - Prince and the second is not. Unfortunately, not knowing the Hebrew, folks err and make a doctrine based on the translators' take. What they may not know is that the 1611 KJV had both of them as "Prince." It was changed later. The YLT (a really good word-for-word translation of the Textus Receptus/Masoretic) has this:

Daniel 9:25-26
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

9:25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.

Clearly, in the word for word, he equates Messiah the Prince with the Prince that shall come.

In the KJV, we find that "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city." Does the prince destroy the city? No, the people of the prince. In 70 AD, the people of the prince rebelled and went against the Romans. What happened? The city was destroyed. Did they do it directly? Well, no one knows exactly who torched the temple. But, either way, the actions of the Jewish people in Jerusalem brought down the fury of the Roman armies. Whether the Jews burned it or the Romans did is rather a moot point.

Daniel 9:26 - Another Look
Look at this from Dan 9:26.
"...and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
Desolations are determined to the end of the war. At the end, when Jerusalem was destroyed is when the desolation ended.

From the YLT....
Daniel 9:27
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Daniel 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

From the KJV...

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.
From the first post, Jesus' ministry (most agree with this) was seven years...one week. "Confirm" as shown by the YLT, means "strengthen." This says "Covenant." Not treaty. Covenant. What covenant?

Look at Daniel 9 again...
Daniel 9:3-4
And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Note that Daniel does not say to all Israel. He says to them that love him and that keep his commandments. So again, what covenant? It's a covenant that Jesus merely strengthened. It is the covenant that He gave to Abraham.

Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

How would all nations be blessed through Abraham's seed? Through Jesus the Christ.
Jesus strengthened the covenant that God had already made. Those believers in the Old Testament believed that God would do as He promised and provide His salvation, though they knew not the name of Jesus. Those who have believed since Jesus cmbelieved that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection paid the price for their (our) sins. It has always been the same. God has not changed. His mercy and grace has been extended in the same way, most folks, however, saw the physical or fleshly side and not the spiritual side and I must admit that I find it difficult somedays to see the spiritual too. I know we all do. The flesh wars against the Spirit all the time. Jesus confirmed the covenant that God had made with Abraham. In thee shall all nations be blessed. See also Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, and Luke 22:20.

He shall cause the sacrifice to cease...
In Daniel 9, we find that "he shall cause the sacrifice to cease." If this were the antichrist, as is taught by dispensationalists, then he has already been here because there has been no sacrifice in the temple for a long time. Not since 70 AD. Instead look at what Jesus' death meant. It meant that the covering of sins that the sacrifices did was no longer needed. He took all our sins upon Himself and once we accept that free gift, then ours sins are removed as far as east is from west.

The sacrifice ceased literally in 70 AD, but the need ended at Calvary.

And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Indeed, the city was made desolate. The Romans overran the city, destroying all that was in their wake. This has been done. History proves it.

The 70 Weeks are fulfilled

[Odyssey]

Amen, Peter. Good job.

Grace to you,

jak

[Parousia70]

Originally posted by prophet4real
The Interlinear Bible


Daniel gives a time line of seventy weeks for this task to be accomplished. He then records the angel,s message in a devision of the seventy weeks. 7 weeks - 62 weeks - 1 week.
7x 7= 49, 62x 7= 434, 1x 7= 7. 49+ 434+ 7= 490 total years allocated to the fulfillment of this prophecy.
The first 483 years are historically accurate and there is little or no debate. From the decree of Cyrus to The Messiah the Prince is 483 years. Then after the 483 years the Messiah will be cut off. The prophetic clock stops far a while. We know that the birth of Jesus was 483 years after the decree.

Mr 4real,
What math are you using to bring you from the Decree of Cyrus to Messiah? I tried that and look what I found:

Daniel prophesied in verse 25 that from the commandment to restore and rebuild Israel to the coming of the Messiah is 483 years. The question comes to "which decree is it?"

Here are the decrees: (all dates taken from the 1917 Scofield Reference Bible)

The Decree of Cyrus - about 536 BC
* Ezra 1:2-4 Cyrus sends folks out to build the temple.
* The math: 536 - 483 = 53 BC.
* Guess what? No Messiah in 53BC.

The Decree of Artaxerxes - about 534 BC
* Ezra 4:17-22 Artaxerxes' decree here is actually to stop building and wait, not to start.
* Scratch that one.

Haggai and Zechariah Prophesy
* Ezra 5:1-3 Here Zerubbabel and Jeshua build, but no decree is mentioned.
* Scratch that.

Darius quotes Cyrus - about 520 BC
* Ezra 6:1-5 Darius simply quotes Cyrus, but in vv. 6-12, Darius sends out a decree.
* The math: 520 - 483 = 37 BC (some say 33BC...it's close enough I reckon).
* Maybe this was when Theudas popped up?
* Scratch this one, no Messiah.

Ezra 6:14
* "According to the commandment of God, of Cyrus, of Darius, and of Artaxerxes they builded and finished it."
* But look carefully at the decree above of Artaxerxes. His decree was to stop building and wait.
* So they couldn't have been talking about his decree.

Decree of Artaxerxes - 458 BC
* Ezra 7:12 - 26 Artaxerxes makes the decree.
* The math: 483-458 = 25, but there was no 0 AD nor 0 BC, so that makes 26 AD.
* What happened in 26 AD?
John the Baptist baptizes Jesus, the Messiah is annointed by the Holy sprit and begins his earthly misistry!(the 70th week begins)

In the Midst if the week, Christs Crusifixion causes the need for all sacrifice and offering to cease.

Jesus "Strengthend or confirmed" the Covenant with the Jews for one week(7 years) the first 3.5 b His own earthly ministry, the later 3.5 through His disciples. the 70th week commenced in 34 Ad with the Stoning of Stephen. the Gospel was then free to go the the Gentiles.

Don't confuse the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 with the "Time of the end" of Daliel 12 which prophesies the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. they are seperate prophesies.

This isn't rocket surgery folks, it's straightforward. There are no magical gaps or suspensions needed to make Gods word true.

The 70th week is fulfilled