What eschatological doctrine do you agree with?

[prophet4real]

Da 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people
and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in
everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the
vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Da 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the
going forth of the commandment to restore and to
build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall
be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
the street shall be built again, and the wall, even
in troublous times.
Da 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah
be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of
the prince that shall come shall destroy the city
and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be
with a flood, and unto the end of the war
desolations are determined.
Da 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for
one week: and in the midst of the week he shall
cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and
for the overspreading of abominations he shall
make it desolate, even until the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate.

There are seventy weeks determined to accomplish six objectives.
1. To finish the transgression
2. To make an end of sins
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness
5. To seal up the vision and prophecy
6. To anoint the most Holy.
Daniel gives a time line of seventy weeks for this task to be accomplished. He then records the angel's message in a division of the seventy weeks. 7 weeks - 62 weeks - 1 week.
7 x 7= 49, 62 x 7= 434, 1 x 7 = 7. 49 + 434 + 7= 490 total years allocated to the fulfillment of this prophecy.
The first 483 years are historically accurate and there is little or no debate. From the decree of Cyrus to The Messiah the Prince is 483 years. Then after the 483 years the Messiah will be cut off.
At this point I have to admit to a mistake.The 483 years does end at the beginning of Christ Ministry. There is that final week to accomplish the 6 task listed by the angel. It is that one week that I wont to focus on.

The word, after, through me. There are some events that will happen after the 483 years. One cannot justify the destruction of Jerusalem as falling with in that one week. So that event must fall outside the one week period.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: The cutting off of the Messiah is the crucifixion of of Jesus. The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was for us. Within that 1 week of years lies the consummation. To consummate something is to close it. To bring that something to an end. What was to be brought to an end;

1. To finish the transgression
2. To make an end of sins
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness
5. To seal up the vision and prophecy
6. To anoint the most Holy.

Depending on your view of this last week determines your view on wether or not these 6 missions of this prophecy are realized. There are no degrees of completion here. They are or they are not realized. I do not belong to the (yes - but ) church.

Da 9:26 and after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Notice that after the word himself there is a colon ( : ). A colon is used as a formal introducer to call attention to what follows. The colon is not used to change the subject of the sentence which it follows. The people of the prince that shall come is not the subject of the sentence to which it is attached. As a matter of fact the prince of the people is never the subject of any thing. It is the people of the prince that will destroy, not the prince. The destruction of the city and the sanctuary are related to the cutting of of the Messiah in that the destruction is as a result of the Messiah being cut off. The subject is still the Messiah. The subject of the prophecy never changes.

The Interlinear Bible- The Masoretic Text 1866

Daniel 9: 24- 27 Then know and understand from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah the Prince shall be weeks seven and weeks sixty two.Again it shall be built with plaza and ditch even in the affliction of the times. And after weeks sixty and two shall be cut off Messiah. And is not to Him and the city and the sanctuary shall destroy the people of a prince coming. And its end shall be with the flood and until the end shall be war; are determined desolations.and He shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week and in the half of the week he shall make cease sacrifice and offering and upon a wing as abominations a destroyer, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the destroyer.



And is not to Him and the city and the sanctuary shall destroy the people of a prince coming. And its end shall be with the flood and until the end shall be war; are determined desolations.

The Masoretic Text, which is word for word translation of the Hebrew, say's something very different than does the King James.

The Jews were looking for a deliverer that would destroy the people (army) of the coming prince (Ceasar). They though that Jesus would establish the Throne of David at that time.There expect ions were wrong just like the popular expect ions of today are wrong. What the Jew failed to realize is that the Messiah was to be cut off in the middle of the week.

The Masoretic Text and the King James agree that the subject never changes. The Messiah is all ways the subject. The people of the coming prince nor the prince are ever the focus of this scripture. It is all ways the Messiah's actions that are being discussed. The people of the coming prince are going to be the destroyed, not the Messiah. There end will be swift, sudden and overwhelming.

Until the end shall be war; are determined desolations. Notice that war will remain until the end, not the end war. There is no end war just a series of battles in the war that already exist.


What is an its? May I suggest, time. The time it takes to accomplish the 5 missions of this prophecy. Keep your eyes on the prize and not on the pageantry. The pageantry is just a means to an end. With the way or minds work it is easy to assign to much significants to an event or circumstances. We can also manufacture things like Darbeism and see things that are not there or were never meant to be there.

He shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week and in the half of the week he shall make cease sacrifice and offering and upon a wing as abominations a destroyer.

It took how lone for the the Messiah to confirm the covenant? 1 week you say. If that week is not passed then the covenant is not yet confirmed, and if the covenant is not confirmed then God is not obligated to honor it.This verse is used by some to say that the anti Christ is the one to confirm the covenant with the many and will brake it after 3 and 1/2 years but we have seen from the text that the anti Christ is never the subject of this prophecy. Only the Messiah. The Messiah is the one to confirm the covenant. Rest assured that the Messiah did confirm the covenant for 7 years.

What does in the midst mean? Does it mean in the middle? No, not exclusively. Midst can also mean among and during. If I say, " in the midst of the people," am I not also saying, "among the people?" If I say, "In the midst of his life," am I not also saying,"during his life."

Where is the scripture that says that Jesus had a 3 and 1/2 year ministry. Could He not have had a 7 year ministry. By assigning middle as midst we may be assuming facts that are not in evidence. I could be wrong but I don't know of a scripture that confines Jesus to a 3 and 1/2 year ministry. Could it not be just tradition that we arbitrarily say 3 and 1/2 years and assume that is the case. Jesus could have been crucified at the end of His 7 year ministry and I believe that this is the case.

In the half of the week he shall make cease sacrifice and offering.Which half? First half or second half? The second half of course. The offering of the body and blood of Jesus has forever stoped the sacrifice and offerings. The sacrifice and offerings required by the mosaic law were no longer acceptable as warship before the Lord God of Heaven.

Upon a wing as abominations a destroyer. When the religious leaders of the day aligned themselves with Rome there destruction was assured. Judism became the stooge of an evil empire. The destroyer had been set up. In AD 70 the physical followed the spiritual and the destroyer has existed there ever sense. The destroyer will remain there on a wing of the temple until the return of Christ Jesus.

[Brandan Kraft]

The following is everything Revelation says about the "antichrist."







(That's all folks! The word "antichrist" does NOT appear anywhere in the book of Revelation!)

[Odyssey]

While I agree with your understanding of Daniel 7 (for the most part), something else needs to be looked at.

You wrote, 'The destroyer will remain there on a wing of the temple until the return of Christ Jesus.'

Again, I agree with this statement (sort of). When the disciples asked Jesus about the destruction of the temple, they associated his coming with that destruction (Matt.24.2). He told them that he would come within their generation. The rest of the NT testifies to the same idea. They were all expecting the coming of Jesus within their generation. Therefore, the coming of Jesus was/is signified by the destruction of Jerusalem. He told them, 'When you (i.e., the twelve) see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet...' Here Jesus tied his coming to this very passage of Daniel. We know this because a few verses later he told them, 'But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth (literally, 'land') will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.' And then he said, 'Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.' The New Century Version puts it this way, 'I tell you the truth, all these things will happen while the people of this time are still living.' Futhermore, in the gospel of Luke, while teaching on this very subject, Jesus said, 'These are the days of punishment to bring about all that is written in the Scriptures.'

This shows us (along with numerous other passages that have already been shown on this MB) that the coming of Jesus would be in his own generations lifetime.

Grace to you,

jak

[Debbiek]

I also have the new century version and Matthew 24:34 is referring to the previous verses 1-33, as the "time" which he is referring to in verse 34. Taking the one verse out of context diminishes it's value as a basis for a different theory. love, debbie

[Odyssey]

Debbie,

That's exactly my point! We can't take this passage out of the context that Jesus was answering his disciples questions. That he was speaking to them regarding things that they would witness: 'In the same way, when you (disciples) see all these things happening, you (disciples) will know that the time is near, ready to come' (v. 33). Isn't this exactly what they wrote? Certainly. Look at what John wrote, 'My dear children, these are the last days (lit. 'this is the last hour'). You have heard that the enemy of Christ is coming, and now many enemies of Christ are already here. This is how we know that these are the last days (or 'is the last hour')' (1John 2.18). Jesus said that when they saw those things happening, they would know that his coming was 'near, ready to come.' And that is exactly what John wrote.

So you are exactly right! The only way to properly understand these things is to leave them in there context.

Grace to you,

jak

[prophet4real]

You just dont get it yet. That is why there is so much confusion. Jesus said in Mt 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let himunderstand
This is a key that unlocks the door to prophecy. When properly understood there is no need to force anything and all fits together and anxiety flies out the door. Less go back to the interliner Bible to Daniel 9.

The Interlinear Bible

Daniel 9: 25- 27 Then know and understand from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah the Prince shall be weeks seven and weeks sixty two.Again it shall be built with plaza and ditch even in the affliction of the times.
Daniel 9: 26 And after weeks sixty and two shall be cut off Messiah. And is not to Him and the city and the sanctuary shall destroy the people of a prince coming. And its end shall be with the flood and until the end shall be war; are determined desolations.
Daniel 9: 27 and He shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week and in the half of the week he shall make cease sacrifice and offering and upon a wing as abominations a destroyer, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the destroyer.
If I understand you correctly we are agreed that the 70 weeks were completed in Christ Jesus. No half of this or a gap there. I believe our disagreement lies in verse 26. And is not to Him and the city and the sanctuary shall destroy the people of a prince coming. And its end shall be with the flood and until the end shall be war; are determined desolations.
If I were to say "is not to the President and the congress and the military shall destroy the talebon." Would there be a doubt in your mine that the talebon would be destroyed and not the President, the congress and the military.
It is not the destruction of the temple or Jerusalem or the Messiah that is in view here. It is the destruction of the people of the coming prince. An army if you will and until the destruction of that army war shall exist. And there are desolations that will occurs during that war that has not ceased and the temple is one of the many desolations that have all ready occurred as a result of that war.
The Messiah Shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. The 7 year ministry of Jesus the Messiah has fulfilled this prophecy and it is sealed with His own blood at Calvary. The sacrifices and offerings were abolished at the sealing of the new covenant. To make sure that the Old covenant form of worship stopped the Messiah placed the destroyer on the wing of the temple until the end; at which time that which has all ready been decreed shall pour out like a flood on the destroyer. Take a look at the physical manifestation of the army of the destroyer.
¶ And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 38:2
Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
Eze 38:3
And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
Eze 38:5
Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
Eze 38:6
Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
Eze 38:7
Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
Eze 38:8
After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
Eze 38:9
Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
Eze 38:10
Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
Eze 38:11
And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
Eze 38:12
To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
Eze 38:13
Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
Eze 38:14
¶ Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
Eze 38:15
And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
Eze 38:16
And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Eze 38:17
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
Eze 38:18
And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19
For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20
So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21
And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22
And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23
Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

[BrianSH]

Preterism!

[Brandan Kraft]

I no longer consider preterism a valid eschatalogical scheme because it corrupts good soteriology. I'm closing this thread.