Calvinistic Grace

[Philo]

I thought JustGina's "Arminian Grace" was really cool. So, I decided to write my own stanzas based on the song; Amazin' Grace. justGina, you've been my inspiration!

Here's my little ditty, hope ya like it.

Calvinistic grace how sweet the sound that predestined,
elected, foreknew a done deal like me.
How could I ever have really been lost and found when
it's already been decided for me.
And if I was blind and now can see, I'm still saved no matter
what.
Twas grace that has elected me
And pity the poor unelected, anyway.

Through many toils and trials I've been,
But in Heaven, that's where I'll be
If you're not elected, that's too bad
Cause way down under you'll be.

When the elected 'been there 10K of years
It's gonna really be so cool
I pity the poor fool whose not elected
'Cause he's doomed no matter what he believes!

THE END

Hope all ya Calvinists liked it; I'm pretty sure you Arminians will.
But, I'm not so sure about all you unelected.


Philo

[Christ_†_Alone]

Actually...

there is no need to change the original words of Amazing Grace, to reflect the reformed view...

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me,
His Word my hope secures;
He will my Shield and Portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, Who called me here below,
Shall be forever mine.

When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.

You see... the reformers, extoll the humbling grace of God, for our salvation, and not our own choices...

[Brandan Kraft]

Philo, that little ditty you wrote does reflect the view of some hyper-calvinists (a terrible doctrine which comes from hell). But CA is right.

I know you aren't going to like this, but the author of the song, John Newton, was a Calvinist. Don't believe me? Read what he wrote below...

Are You a Calvinist?

If you mean by a rigid Calvinist, one who is fierce, dogmatical, and censorious, and ready to deal out anathemas against all who differ from him, I hope I am no more such a one than I am a rigid Papist. But, as to the doctrines which are now stigmatized by the name of Calvinism, I cannot well avoid the epithet rigid, while I believe them: for there seems to be no medium between holding them and not holding them; between ascribing salvation to the will of man, or the power of God; between grace and works, Romans, 11:6.; between being found in the righteousness of Christ, or in my own, Philippians, 3:9. Did the harsh consequences often charged upon the doctrine called Calvinistic really belong to it, I should have much to answer for if I had invented it myself, or taken it upon trust from Calvin; but, as I find it in the Scriptures, I cheerfully embrace it, and leave it to the Lord to vindicate his own truths and his own ways, from all the imputations which have been cast upon them.

--John Newton (author of the hymn, Amazing Grace)

http://www.founders.org/FJ29/sidebar.html

[Brandan Kraft]

Various quotes from Charles Spurgeon

"I know nothing, nothing again, that is more humbling for us than this doctrine of election. I have sometimes fallen prostrate before it, when endeavouring to understand it. I have stretched my wings, and, eagle-like, I have soared towards the sun. Steady has been my eye, and true my wing, for a season; but, when I came near it, and the one thought possessed me, "God hath from the beginning chosen you unto salvation," I was lost in its lustre, I was staggered with the mighty thought; and from the dizzy elevation down came my soul, prostrate and broken, saying, 'Lord, I am nothing, I am less than nothing. Why me? Why me?'"

"God must have chosen me before I came into the world, He certainly would not have done so afterward."

"I will go as far as Martin Luther, where he says, 'If any man ascribes anything of salvation, even the very least thing, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace, and he has not learned Jesus Christ rightly.'"

"I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, 'You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself.' My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will."

"As long as that [Rom. 9] remains in the Bible. . . not the most violent contortions of the passage will ever be able to exterminate the doctrine of election from the Scriptures."

"(The man who properly understands the doctrine of election) will become kind to others. He will hold his opinions, but he will not hold them savagely, nor will he teach them bitterly, because he will say, 'If I have light and others have not, my light was given me from God, therefore I have no cause to plume myself upon it. I will try to spread that light, but not by anger and abuse. For why should I blame those who cannot see, for could I have seen if God had not opened my blind eyes?"

"In these words (Rom. 9:15) the Lord in the plainest manner claims the right to give or to withhold His mercy according to His own sovereign will. As the prerogative of life and death is vested in the monarch, so the Judge of all the earth has a right to spare or condemn the guilty, as may seem best in His sight. Men by their sins have forfeited all claim upon God; they deserve to perish for their sins and if they all do so, they have no ground for complaint.

If the Lord steps in to save any, He may do so if the ends of justice are not thwarted; but if He judges it best to leave the condemned to suffer the righteous sentence, none may arraign Him at the bar. Foolish and impudent are all those discourses about the rights of men to be placed on the same footing; ignorant, if not worse, are those contentions against discriminating grace, which are but the rebellions of proud human nature against the crown and sceptre of Jehovah. When we are brought to see our own utter ruin and ill desert, and the justice of the divine verdict against sin, we no longer cavil at the truth that the Lord is not bound to save us; we do not murmur if He chooses to save others, as though He were doing us an injury, but feel that if He deigns to look upon us, it will be His own free act of undeserved goodness, for which we shall ever bless His name. How shall those who are the subjects of divine election sufficiently adore the grace of God? They have no room for boasting, for sovereignty most effectually excludes it.

The Lord's will alone is glorified, and the very notion of human merit is cast out to everlasting contempt. There is no more humbling doctrine in Scripture than that of election, none more promotive of gratitude, and, consequently, none more sanctifying. Believers should not be afraid of it, but adoringly rejoice in it."

"It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

"You know, brethren, that there is no living soul who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer, I wish to be called nothing but a Christian. . . . But, my dear friends, far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none within her walls but Calvinistic Christians, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views."

"I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in his dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of his elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."

"'The time of figs is not yet.' The predestined moment has not struck; but, when it comes, they shall obey, for God will have his own; they must, for the Spirit is not to be withstood when he cometh forth with fulness of power they must become the willing servants of the living God".

"Then in the fulness of time He purchased me with His blood; He let His heart run out in one deep groaning wound for me long ere I loved Him. Yea, when He first came to me, did I not spurn Him? When He knocked at the door, and asked for entrance, did I not drive Him away, and do despite to His grace? Ah! I can remember that I full often did so until, at last, by the power of His effectual grace, He said, "I must, I will come in"; and then He turned my heart, and made me love Him. But even till now I should have resisted Him, had it not been for His grace."

[Philo]

Hi kermie and CA,

Glad your're not mad about my little parody.

I was afraid you were going to censer or ban me from this MB for poking some fun at Calvinism. You see,
I was recently banned from a well-known Christian MB/forum (whose name is the same as the first three numbers of a well known convenience store chain), simply because the moderator/administrator disagreed with my post saying "Harry Potter" is an acceptable movie for Christians. He accused me of promoting witchcraft and implied that I was not even a Christian.

Anyway, fear not-
Although I am not a die-hard, rank-and-file, Calvinist: I am also not an Arminian. I am simply a Bible believing saint, who has been completely wash of all sins by the grace of God, and has a new and forever life with my wonderful Savior, and my salvation cannot ever be lost, no matter what! (I'll let you Arminians chew on that for a while.) Yes, I believe in God's election but not in the same sense as you two seem to. I am more in agreement with Nay Nay (based on what I have read of her beliefs.)

Rather than arguing beliefs with you two, (which is probably a complete waste of time), let me ask you some questions:

Was there ever a time in either of you lives when you realized that the Lord Jesus Christ had taken away your sins and given you eternal life with Him?

If there never was such a time, would you still be forgiven and on you way to Heaven?

If you believe that only the elect/predestined/forknown by God have eternal life, then do you believe that there is no point in continuing to endevor to spread the gospel according to Matt 28:19-20 ?

Before you start hammering away on your keyboards in order to set me straight, I want you to know this: I believe God forknew EVERYONE who is His from the beginning. But God also foreknew ALL who would receive their salvation by LOOKING to Him in FAITH. (Luke 23:40-43, John 3:14-21, John 6:40, Rom 4:1-5, Gal 2:16, Eph 1:13, 1 John 5:9-13)


Yours in Christ,

Philo

[Christ_†_Alone]

Mad? nawww... I only get mad when someone eats the last piece of pie...

We dont ban folks for simple things like that, we ban folks for doing things like... eating the last piece of pie, and those few things mentioned in the forum rules. (kermie forgot to list pie in there, we need to get on him about that, eh?)

Re: your Q's...

1. Was there ever a time in either of you lives when you realized that the Lord Jesus Christ had taken away your sins and given you eternal life with Him?

Yes... there was a point in my life I understood my sins were forgiven, and my future beyond this life, was secure in Christ.

2. If there never was such a time, would you still be forgiven and on you way to Heaven?

If, a person had never experienced sorrow over their sin, never repented towards God, then I don't believe there is forgiveness, no.

3. If you believe that only the elect/predestined/forknown by God have eternal life, then do you believe that there is no point in continuing to endevor to spread the gospel according to Matt 28:19-20 ?

On the contrary, the fact that we know there WILL be a harvest, is all the more motivation TO share the gospel. God could have declared any method He wanted to, but for His own reasons He chose that the gospel would be shared with the ungodly, BY the redeemed.

Unlike an arminian, sharing the gospel, and not knowing IF anyone MIGHT be saved, since it's all up to them (in that line of doctrine), those of us who are reformed, LOVE to share the gospel, because we know for SURE, at least some of those we witness to, WILL be saved!

No need to hammer away, just feel free to use the search tools here to see what we believe, and have already shared (saves alot of repeat posts that way).

[Brandan Kraft]

Philo,

I encourage you to read this post on Calvinism and Evangelism. Hopefully it will clear things up on what we believe....

http://www.predestinarian.net/showth...ology#post4007

Your friend,
Brandan

[Philo]

Thank you kermie,
But I am already clear on what you believe.

As I say, I too believe we are commissioned to spread the gospel.

As to your postition on the "Calvinist/Reformed" beliefs: I refer you to my position and beliefs on predestination/election that I posted under justGina's thread, "Arminian Grace", on 11-17-01 at 10:27PM where I explain what I believe predistination/election truely means.
I would also refer you to an interesting web-site called "People-to-People Ministries". You can listen to several tape series online on Bible subjects including one on Predistination/election.
A man named Bob George is the speaker on these series of tapes.

Try either: www.realanswers.net

or www.peopletopeople.org

They also have a nation-wide radio call-in show where you can call in and take issue with what they believe.

Philo

[Philo]

Hi kermie and CA, and everyone else,

I just thought that I would clarify something on that web-site I posted above: www.realanswers.net

In order to hear the audio you need to click on the "Real Answers" box at the top of their home page.
If you have "Real Player" or something similar you should be able to download and hear the recording on: "Predestination: Does Man Have a Free Will?"

Since such a huge deal is made on this MB about Calvinist/Reformed theology, then I strongly urge you to take the time to listen to what the speaker has to say in this 20 minute audio from the "People-to-People" radio show archives. It's a real eye opener. And be sure to check out the Scriptures the speaker quotes.

Have a blessed new year,


Philo

[Flip Special]

Philo, I loved your song! How true it is when dealing with that Calvinistic view!

I'm beginning to think that Calvinism is a Heresy, and the believers of it are playing into the hands of Satan, even if they don't know it.

[Brandan Kraft]

Flip, you've "flip" flopped back and forth on this issue so much, I'm not sure you're sure of what you believe...

Brandan