The Intermediate State

[Robert R. Higby]

Does the following passage tell us anything about the state of the elect between temporal death and the resurrection of the body? Most interpreters answer 'yes'. I answer 'no'.



Ecclesiastes 9



2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth and to him that sacrificeth not; as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea also, the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined with all the living there is hope; for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God hath already accepted thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let not thy head lack oil.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of thy life of vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all thy days of vanity: for that is thy portion in life, and in thy labor wherein thou laborest under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.
11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.



Your thoughts?

[Brandan Kraft]

Bob, do you even consider Ecclesiastes as authoritative?

[trav]

I do not believe so either. Would Jude 6 or 2Peter 2:9 shed any light? Just a thought, let me know if I'm way off base.

[Robert R. Higby]

I personally do not consider Ecclesiastes to be part of what Christ referred to as the authoritative Old Testament scriptures (Luke 24:44: He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."). But we have not had any extended debate on the subject of the OT canon yet.

There are basically two options here:

1. The passage is teaching false doctrine.
2. The passage is an inspired revelation of an 'under the sun' perspective which is short of God's full gospel truth.

Either way, it can't be used as any authority on what constitutes the reality of what takes place on the other side of the curtain beyond death.

The materialists (SDA's, JW's, etc.) use this passage as evidence that there is no consciousness between death and resurrection. In response to those arguments, 'evangelicals' use the passage as evidence that departed saints know NOTHING about history on the Earth past their moment of exit.

There is no basis for either.

Trav: Would Jude 6 or 2Peter 2:9 shed any light?

On the particular question of whether departed saints know anything of what happens here on Earth after their death, I don't think so.

--Bob

[Calvinator]

Does the following passage tell us anything about the state of the elect between temporal death and the resurrection of the body? Most interpreters answer 'yes'. I answer 'no'.



Ecclesiastes 9



2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth and to him that sacrificeth not; as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea also, the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined with all the living there is hope; for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God hath already accepted thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let not thy head lack oil.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of thy life of vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all thy days of vanity: for that is thy portion in life, and in thy labor wherein thou laborest under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.
11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.



Your thoughts?

For the elect to be absent from the body means being present with the Lord, then I have to agree with you, Bob. The answer would have to be no. How does one that is with the Lord have no knowledge nor wisdom?

King James uses the word grave for the word sheol, but here is what Strong's defines the word sheol as;

H7585
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

If it is being used as the word Hades or world of the dead, it could not be referring to the elect.

[Calvinator]

But we have not had any extended debate on the subject of the OT canon yet.

Oh... what a quagmire that will be. I can not wait.

[trav]

I was thinking of something totally different when I read the verses you put up Bob, my bad. Please ignore my last post.

[Robert R. Higby]

For me, the most reasonable position is that the departed saints continue to observe earthly history after their departure; even that they serve mankind along with the elect angels. I can see nothing in scripture that teaches against this and several indications that it is true. Spiritism, however, is strictly forbidden in God's revelation in the Old Testament and there is no reason to suspect that it is acceptable in the New Covenant. Yet virtually all of the interpretations of life after death in popular movies and philosophy assume that spiritism is legitimate.

[GraceAmbassador]

For me, the most reasonable position is that the departed saints continue to observe earthly history after their departure; even that they serve mankind along with the elect angels. I can see nothing in scripture that teaches against this and several indications that it is true. Spiritism, however, is strictly forbidden in God's revelation in the Old Testament and there is no reason to suspect that it is acceptable in the New Covenant. Yet virtually all of the interpretations of life after death in popular movies and philosophy assume that spiritism is legitimate.

Spiritism is the religion of the Brazilian rich and famous. It was invented by Alan Kardec. It is ROMAN CATHOLICISM WITH A VENGEANCE! Can't help but add this: Their favorite Bible book: JAMES!