Has God Predestined Any Humans to Salvation Who Don't Hear the Gospel in this Life?

[Robert R. Higby]

We have touched on this subject in many threads but I don't think we have ever had a thread exclusively devoted to the question.

[Eileen]

We have touched on this subject in many threads but I don't think we have ever had a thread exclusively devoted to the question.

It’s an interesting question. I think the majority of our thinking has been so traditionalized so that the standard answer has become Romans 10:14:

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?”

I don’t think that Paul’s only point was to ‘send preachers’ but it was to point out that many have “heard” and have not believed and was a continuing explanation of election being set forth in Romans 9, especially Romans 9:6.

John the Baptist said to the Pharisees and Sadducees in Matthew 3:9 “And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham”.

I take this verse literally as to the power of God to raise up children in whatever manner He desires. Stones cannot hear, babies cannot understand, Alzheimer patients cannot understand and a heathen in a far off country who never hears the Gospel CAN be a child of God because the purpose of election always stands. Even hearing in this life cannot thwart the plan and purpose of God from timeless eternity!

Eileen~

[GraceAmbassador]

Excellent reasoning eileen!

[rlhuckle]

I agree! Most people assume that man has to perform something in order to make the gospel effective, but this view excludes by definition elect infants that may be aborted and the intellectually incapacitated. While Scripture is silent on this issue in specificity, the example of John in the womb and Job's and Jeremiah's descriptions of infants leads me to believe that there are elect infants who very well may be brought to a knowledge of the truth yet not able to give testimony to that fact to others in time.

[Robert R. Higby]

What about:

1. Elect children who have grown out of infancy.
2. Elect pre-teens.
3. Elect among the mentally deformed.
4. Elect in places with no gospel witness or scriptures.
5. Elect who passed on with no gospel witness or scriptures.

Eileen gave us her position. The reason I'm asking is that many theologians confess the existence of elect infants dying in infancy but not the other 5 above.

[Brandan Kraft]

Here are my rambling thoughts and questions on this topic. I do feel much of this is speculative and am doubtful there is any conclusive answer.

Bob, if a person is consistent in their theology - if they allow for elect infants - I would assume they would have to allow for other scenarios such as the mentally deformed. Here's a question - those who allow for elect infants that die in infancy (preborn or otherwise), do they allow for reprobate infants who die in infancy (preborn or otherwise)?

My official position is that all who believe the Gospel will experience everlasting and eternal life. Those who don't believe the Gospel before dying, well, there really is no need to speculate on their personal everlasting destiny. God knows exactly what He is doing, and WHATEVER HE HAS ALREADY DECIDED (for all time) is fine by me and something that all the elect will rejoice in.

My personal opinion is that salvation generally is something to be experienced as a sinner - we are fashioned in iniquity, created to sin and commit atrocious evil against God. We the elect are very wrathful people that God redeemed in Christ. It's this transformation of WHAT WE WERE to WHAT WE WILL BECOME (glorified saints) is what makes our redemption by Christ so amazingly wonderful to me. It's a beautiful thing - and something that the angels desire to look into....

1 Pet 1:12, (NASB), It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.

John Gill writes

"into which things": so the Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions read; namely, the sufferings of Christ, and the glories following; the great mystery of redemption and salvation by Christ; the several doctrines of the Gospel, in which the glory of the grace, wisdom, righteousness, truth, and power of God is displayed; things they are highly delighted with, take pleasure in the contemplation of, and desire to have a greater knowledge of, and acquaintance with: they sung glory to God in the highest at the incarnation of Christ; they rejoice at the conversion of a sinner; and disdain not to be ministering spirits to the heirs of salvation; and learn of the church the manifold wisdom of God; which may serve greatly to commend the excellency of Gospel truths, and engage us in the study of them.

It's our LIFE - our conversion from death unto life - the joy unspeakable that in my opinion is hard to even fathom without the experience of being at odds with God and sinning in the likeness of Adam. But I'm speaking from experience and am indeed VERY thankful for all of my life experiences - even the sin which God created me in. Ward Fenley once wrote:

God's absolute sovereignty works itself in our lives in manners such as causing us to stumble when we become exalted in our victories over certain sins thinking we have mastered those sins forever. We begin to forget the power of God. God in His infinite and penetrating love seizes the pride and scourges every son whom He receives. Through sin God reminds the Christian of the weakness that left them pale in the vice of death.

Where is this experience for those in the question you are asking Bob? What differentiates redeemed man from the angels? Where is this differentiation from angels for those who supposedly die and experience salvation before even being born?

BTW, here's another question - are those that die before being born even sinners and if not, why would they need the Gospel? Wouldn't they be like angels?

We are going into speculative territory here. I don't know the answers - nor do I feel like I need to know them - we will find out in time.

[Robert R. Higby]

I think we would all agree that any who are ultimately saved from mankind will believe the gospel. In God's appointed time.

Currently, I have not yet stated my own convictions on the question. I'm trying to bring out all of the issues and reason thru them.

Where is this experience for those in the question you are asking Bob? What differentiates redeemed man from the angels? Where is this differentiation from angels for those who supposedly die and experience salvation before even being born?

All of mankind, whether elect or non-elect, are conceived in iniquity--this is what distinguishes their spiritual state from the angels. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'before even being born'. But there is no distinction between rebels of age, mental condition, tribe, kindred, etc. when it comes to their natural attitude towards the sovereign God of the universe. Even if no actual act of rebellion against a perceived or known requirement (commandment) of God has occurred due to shortness of life, rebellion of attitude and thought existed from conception on. So if such a soul is elect and saved, he/she KNOWS ultimately that such salvation is from the same depths of rebellion as that of the most practicing and advanced of adult sinners.

On the other side of the curtain, I am convinced, there is no distinction of age, mental condition, or lack of basic gospel knowledge due to former earthly circumstances. All enter the hereafter immediately as mature thinking souls. Even in this life, the only distinction relative to age, mental condition, and tribal inaccessibility is related to man's inability to communicate the gospel to certain souls, not God's.

I would agree that it is ridiculous to propose that ALL of any age, mental condition, kindred, nation, or tribe are elect. On that point I think we can all unite at the outset.

[Brandan Kraft]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'before even being born'. But there is no distinction between rebels of age, mental condition, tribe, kindred, etc. when it comes to their natural attitude towards the sovereign God of the universe.

I used the phrase because I thought that a distinction between prebirth and postbirth people had been made. Going back and re-reading it, I see that there has not.

I would agree that it is ridiculous to propose that ALL of any age, mental condition, kindred, nation, or tribe are elect. On that point I think we can all unite at the outset.

GOOD!

[GraceAmbassador]

Here are my rambling thoughts and questions on this topic. I do feel much of this is speculative and am doubtful there is any conclusive answer.

Bob, if a person is consistent in their theology - if they allow for elect infants - I would assume they would have to allow for other scenarios such as the mentally deformed. Here's a question - those who allow for elect infants that die in infancy (preborn or otherwise), do they allow for reprobate infants who die in infancy (preborn or otherwise)?

My official position is that all who believe the Gospel will experience everlasting and eternal life. Those who don't believe the Gospel before dying, well, there really is no need to speculate on their personal everlasting destiny. God knows exactly what He is doing, and WHATEVER HE HAS ALREADY DECIDED (for all time) is fine by me and something that all the elect will rejoice in.

My personal opinion is that salvation generally is something to be experienced as a sinner - we are fashioned in iniquity, created to sin and commit atrocious evil against God. We the elect are very wrathful people that God redeemed in Christ. It's this transformation of WHAT WE WERE to WHAT WE WILL BECOME (glorified saints) is what makes our redemption by Christ so amazingly wonderful to me. It's a beautiful thing - and something that the angels desire to look into....

1 Pet 1:12, (NASB), It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.

John Gill writes

It's our LIFE - our conversion from death unto life - the joy unspeakable that in my opinion is hard to even fathom without the experience of being at odds with God and sinning in the likeness of Adam. But I'm speaking from experience and am indeed VERY thankful for all of my life experiences - even the sin which God created me in. Ward Fenley once wrote:

Where is this experience for those in the question you are asking Bob? What differentiates redeemed man from the angels? Where is this differentiation from angels for those who supposedly die and experience salvation before even being born?
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
BTW, here's another question - are those that die before being born even sinners and if not, why would they need the Gospel? Wouldn't they be like angels?

We are going into speculative territory here. I don't know the answers - nor do I feel like I need to know them - we will find out in time.

Brandan:

I am pleasantly surprised by your answer! It is the missionary answer, the one that I would give and now echo in most major points.

My only comment would be that the need for a "preacher" has been highly overrated. The Holy Spirit is the SUPREME preacher (the advocate) and He does not need a pulpit, an apple box in a street corner, TV cameras or a jam packed soccer stadium with a choir singing two verses of Just as I am to preach to people, neither does He need the sinner to be "conscious". Indeed, as Eileen pointed out, God has designed the "preaching of the Word" which is understood as being heard by the natural ears, however, we have to make an exception to the rule of silence here and believe that God can also PREACH the Gospel!

One very important noteworthy point, though: ALL THAT WILL BE SAVED, either in by hearing, or by silence, or by a preacher or by the SUPREME preacher will be saved through the Work of Jesus Christ, by His blood, justified by faith alone, with no participation or merit of their own. The Holy Spirit will advocate Christ to them in a way or another, and they will be saved.

I have a sister who is mentally challenged due to encephalitis when she was 3 years of age, that destroyed her ability to learn, to speak correctly and she has ZERO cognitive abilities. She is nice, good and kind like no one, but she has to be taught how to do the dishes every time and every day. She is clean and neat but has to be told what to do every day. However if you ask her about the Gospel, she will tell you the basics like no one else. She couldn't learn anything else at the level she learned the Gospel; not from a preacher, I assure you! It was a veritable miracle from God, which gladdens the whole family and make us to be thankful to Him forever.

Let God be God! He can speak to a jackass (literally), to another like me, (not so literally), to a baby in the womb and He will do HIS PLEASURE regardless of time and opportunity! Praise His Name! He is NEVER wrong!

Good discussion!

Milt

[Brandan Kraft]

Jesus SAVED. The elect come to the knowledge of their salvation by the announced message of what Jesus did whether that is spoken by an itinerant preacher, the books in the bible, or direct confrontation (eg. Saul of Tarsus). In all cases, it is Holy Spirit revelation.

[Brandan Kraft]

AND when they come to knowledge of their salvation really doesn't matter to me either. The question is - is it possible for them to come to the knowledge of their salvation AFTER they die?

[GraceAmbassador]

AND when they come to knowledge of their salvation really doesn't matter to me either. The question is - is it possible for them to come to the knowledge of their salvation AFTER they die?

After they die? Hmmmm. I believe that "dying" without knowing Jesus Christ, or knowing but dying in rejection was a punishment for the reprobate. No. I don't think so, not after they die in the sense that we humans know the word "death". Maybe someone has another definition for death, but if Jesus' overcame death, (...oh death, where is your sting...), the elect does not die without knowing Christ, but only gets "promoted" to use a simplistic term.

[GraceAmbassador]

Note that in another thread, Gerhard and I had an interesting exchange since he defends (correct me if I am wrong) that we can pray for the dead. Mormons baptize their dead by proxy and other sects and beliefs (including the Roman Catholics) believe in praying for their dead and changing God's mind about them. So, in a way, I think some have already answered the question: After they die?

[Brandan Kraft]

Well I agree with you about dying - it is a promotion! But even we as believers today will know more about the Gospel after we die. Bob's question is what about those who DO NOT HEAR the Gospel in THIS LIFE? Is it possible for them to hear the Gospel in the next and not this one?

Most people probably will not hear the Gospel in this life (note this is my speculative opinion). Not all people will not be promoted - and will die in misery and go to hell as THAT is their destiny - just as it was the destiny of satan and reprobate demons. Jesus did not atone for every man who ever lived or will live.

The question is - did Jesus die and save any elect people who will not hear the Gospel message in this life? It's the title of this thread. That is purely speculative in my opinion - but I won't rule it out - all is possible with God.

Bob, what are your thoughts?

[Brandan Kraft]

Note that in another thread, Gerhard and I had an interesting exchange since he defends (correct me if I am wrong) that we can pray for the dead. Mormons baptize their dead by proxy and other sects and beliefs (including the Roman Catholics) believe in praying for their dead and changing God's mind about them. So, in a way, I think some have already answered the question: After they die?

Well I don't believe in praying for ANYONE's salvation since it is a past event.

[GraceAmbassador]

Well I agree with you about dying - it is a promotion! But even we as believers today will know more about the Gospel after we die. Bob's question is what about those who DO NOT HEAR the Gospel in THIS LIFE? Is it possible for them to hear the Gospel in the next and not this one?

Most people probably will not hear the Gospel in this life (note this is my speculative opinion). Not all people will not be promoted - and will die in misery and go to hell as THAT is their destiny - just as it was the destiny of satan and reprobate demons. Jesus did not atone for every man who ever lived or will live.

The question is - did Jesus die and save any elect people who will not hear the Gospel message in this life? It's the title of this thread. That is purely speculative in my opinion - but I won't rule it out - all is possible with God.

Bob, what are your thoughts?

I actually agree with you! My real question is (which means that this thread will elicit more questions than answers):

Reasoning:

1. God elected the ELECT to be saved;
2. God provided the means of the elect's Salvation
3. God provided a way so the ELECT would not EVER miss His Salvation
4. God has provided at least one known way for the ELECT know of His Salvation and experience in this life

Now the question:

Why then, in most common examples, in situations humanly called "normal", in this side of heaven, under the sun, WHY WOULD GOD LET AN ELECT DIE WITHOUT ENJOYING THE GLORIOUS KNOWLEDGE AND CERTAINTY OF HIS SALVATION? Wouldn't that be a tragedy?

Why all the provisions for the Salvation of the Elect and then cause the ELECT to go to eternity in total ignorance of his own Salvation and then be in awe of heaven when he gets there?

then, another question:

If God designed the Salvation of His elect TO GLORIFY HIS NAME, why then He would allow, or cause the ELECT go through this life without knowing of HIS SALVATION, thus not GIVING GLORY TO GOD?

Perhaps the objective way to answer this question is: THE ELECT WILL KNOW THAT HE IS SAVED EITHER CONSCIOUSLY OR SUBCONSCIOUSLY.

I don't see any Godly reason as to why God preclude His own Glorification HERE ON EARTH while the "targeted" ELECT is still alive?

I quit! No answers; only questions...

[Brandan Kraft]

Agreed. No answers only questions. But I agree with you. Eternal life is to be experienced NOW. But for some it does come late in this life such as the thief on the cross.

[Robert R. Higby]

Milt: ALL THAT WILL BE SAVED, either in by hearing, or by silence, or by a preacher or by the SUPREME preacher will be saved through the Work of Jesus Christ, by His blood, justified by faith alone, with no participation or merit of their own. The Holy Spirit will advocate Christ to them in a way or another, and they will be saved.

I certainly agree!

This does raise again a question that has often been discussed: Does regeneration occur independently of coming to a basic knowledge of Christ, faith, and repentance. I say No, some 'hardshell Calvinists' argue 'yes'; affirming that regeneration is totally unconscious and unknown to those who receive it when it occurs, with the 'new mind' and knowledge of gospel truth coming only subsequent to that. In this context it is wise to consider the illustration of Emil Brunner, the Neo-orthodox scholar/skeptic, who compares a person coming to know God to two lovers making out in the park without speaking any actual words of communication. In the 'unconscious regeneration' position, the experience of coming to know God initially is a lot like Brunner's illustration.

Brandan: The question is - did Jesus die and save any elect people who will not hear the Gospel message in this life? It's the title of this thread. That is purely speculative in my opinion - but I won't rule it out - all is possible with God. Bob, what are your thoughts?

I am working on how to answer this one adequately; studying some past theologians though that is usually not of much help!

[rlhuckle]

I believe that a knowledge of the truth is the promise of the Spirit to all of God's elect and always thought this a timely experiential event. I haven't studied it in depth because there really isn't much to study that I've found. When people ask me about those born in the wilderness without a preacher, I always responded that God never sent preachers to other cities and places either (Tyre, Sidon) and He has the power to borne a soul wherever He wishes. If God doesn't want somebody to hear the gospel, they obviously won't. Then again, where does it say that the gospel MUST be communicated via sense perception? As Brandon said, with God all things are possible! (this is very very good news!)

[Eileen]

I keep thinking of our being creatures of time and how I believe we will always be creatures of time. We know it will be different because it will be eternal but it will still be time won’t it?

If we use an elect infant as one example then wouldn’t we have to conclude that upon being ushered into the presence of God that soul would only THEN have the experience of regeneration, the gift of faith, and THEN be given the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and THEN know who Christ is and that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. It will be THEN that they will know who has saved him/her and from what. Wouldn’t it be that only THEN would they have the mind of Christ and only THEN would they begin their growing in Grace. If we learn for all of eternal time would that still be considered growing in Grace and in knowledge? Talk about God receiving ALL the Glory, that one will certainly know that they had nothing to do with their salvation.

Isn’t it possible to think of eternal time still as time? So we have come to know Christ in this time, yet with the elect infant soul isn’t it just a different time that we are speaking of actually that they receive the fruit of electing grace?

Just some thoughts!
Eileen~