Supralapsarian Studies

[GraceAmbassador]

All of us (most of us) became "fans" of the Supralapsarian page on FaceBook. Bob (Robert Higby), mentioned something in that page and I quote:

FYI--Some of us do not believe that Supralapsarianism has to do with an order of decrees at all--that focusing on this is trying to define Superior Grace in an infralapsarian terms of debate reduced to Process Theism. But I'm not going to start any debates here on this!

I think this statement is right on. Strangely enough, coincidentally I found this book in the Internet, which I am presently reading, written by a man called Loraine Boettner, who, after defending the INFRA position, even stating that the Bible is "practically infralapsarian" (italics are his), and stating that only 1 out of 100 Calvinists take the Supralapsarian position, and that the Supra position is actually High-Calvinism, he has a moment of glory (in my opinion), and writes the following "however":

It is of course true that in either system the sovereign choice of God in election is strewed and
salvation in its whole course is the work of God. Opponents usually stress the supralapsarian system
since it is the one which without explanation is more likely to conflict with man's natural feelings
and impressions. It is also true that there are some things here which cannot be put into the time
mould,—that these events are not in the Divine mind as they are in ours, by a succession of acts,
one after another, but that by one single act God has at once ordained all these things. In the Divine
mind the plan is a unit, each part of which is designed with reference to a state of facts which God
intended should result from the other parts. All of the decrees are eternal. They have a logical, but
not a chronological, relationship.

I believe that, anyone who says such a thing, may believe that, because he "orders" the decrees of God with their beginning point at the "fall", that he is an "infra", but, if one takes the chronological order out of the Decrees, and sees the events considering how they occurred in God's mind, not ours, and if one keeps this view and holds to this view, without attempting to somehow establish an order in the Decrees, only to satisfy our human need to see things in a temporal way, IS IN FACT A SUPRALAPSARIAN.

What saith thou?

Milt

[Robert R. Higby]

Milt, I would agree that the quote you provided represents the best side of Boettner's lifelong theological testimony. I feel a real affinity with Boettner; he wrote all of his best books after returning to a private farming life in Tarkio MO. That is certainly UNIQUE amongst Reformed scholars--who else among the well-published and respected was not a sectarian recognized ordained pastor or theology professor in debt to his denomination?

The PCA historical record is here:
http://www.pcahistory.org/findingaid...ner/index.html

I will NEVER understand why Boettner ordered (supposedly?--we don't know) some of his files to be destroyed. I would not do that even if such files revealed that I embezzled money from a company or had a mistress! History is SO important in the treasures that are contained therein. We just can't afford to willingly erase it to save us a little embarrassment--whatever it is.

I had a chart on supralapsarianism years ago that I can't find right now (in spite of much looking)--I think Brandan will eventually recover it from the p-net library backup.

--Bob

[GraceAmbassador]

Thanks Bob!

Indeed it was quite a life!

It is sad indeed that he sort of "burned his files"!

I've had a recent "revival" of desiring to rebuild and strengthen my beliefs in the Supralapsarian side of the Reformed doctrine and as I was researching material over the Internet, I found Dr. Boettner's writings!

On thing I must confess here and do it in no uncertain terms: I was pretending to be debating my own beliefs in Predestination and Supralapsarianism and found myself powerless when faced with the objections I posed to myself (I have always maintained that when I talk to myself, it is good, for at least I have someone intelligent to listen...) I was terrified! What if God calls me today to minister the truths He has revealed to me in the last 21 years? Would I be prepared? I felt I was not, and obviously forgot the truthful aphorism that "when God guides, He provides". I set out to re-study everything I have held as true and have been convinced for so many years. That's when I came up with Dr. Boettner's material and a few others that perhaps I will be publishing here. Finding some of this material has been, so far, the fulfillment of the guidance God provides when He guides one of His own to execute His work here on earth.

Here is another piece I found and I hope this is as useful to you, and all of us, as it was to me:

http://www.eschatology.com/supralapsarianism.html

Blessings!

Milt

[Brandan Kraft]

I have it. Let me get it! :-)

[Brandan Kraft]

Here it is in attached in pdf form. I'll make a real library article for it soon...

[Brandan Kraft]

Milt, the link to the article you posted was written by Ward Fenley. Sadly though, Ward does promote full preterism. He is also a member of the group we just joined on facebook. Scott says he's trying to gather some sort of minimalist ecumenical group together, but there can be NO ecumenical unity within that group in my opinion when doctrines like full preterism are tolerated. I do like the group though - I've never seen so many self confessing supralapsarians together in one place!!!

[GraceAmbassador]

Thanks Brandan!

Full preterism is a sect! No minimally ecumenism here...

[Robert R. Higby]

I don't see how full Preterism and supralapsarianism can mix or be in any logical harmony. If a knowledge of the plan of salvation starts with a contemplation of the final states of redemption and reprobation and working back from there, full Preterism fails ENTIRELY because its purely immaterial eschatology HAS NO clear teaching on what constitutes the FINAL state of EITHER!

[GraceAmbassador]

I don't see how full Preterism and supralapsarianism can mix or be in any logical harmony. If a knowledge of the plan of salvation starts with a contemplation of the final states of redemption and reprobation and working back from there, full Preterism fails ENTIRELY because its purely immaterial eschatology HAS NO clear teaching on what constitutes the FINAL state of EITHER!

Yes!
And considering what I recently heard from F.P. who claim that "if you're not a F.P., you will have a problem claiming to be a Christian" is also contrary, not only to the Supra concept, but also to ELECTION. B.T.W., I took that notion that F.P. will eventually not consider non F.P. Christians from interviews I heard on Gene Cook's broadcast.

I am always learning here!

Thanks Bob!

[Robert R. Higby]

YES!

Well, one thing we can be sure of is that the 'New Earth' of FP (i.e., the earth minus the temple of Nehemiah) has only about 5 billion years left. After that the sun will not have enough hydrogen fuel to sustain human life on earth. Since there is not a cosmic renewal by the Lord's power in our future, the earth eventually faces certain doom!

[GraceAmbassador]

In some aspects (maybe in all aspects) the F.P. is as much as a sect as the J.W. and others... Your comment above demonstrates that.

As to the Supra message I just have to say that it seems that there is a revival of Supra believers, however I have noticed that most Baptist Reformed do believe to be Supras but when you hear their messages and listen to their teaching they are REALLY not. Either that or they simply cannot be delivered from the addiction, the VICE, of using terms such as "God permits", or, this person did this therefore, after that, God did that, as if God was waiting form some human activity to determine His activity, or the classical fallacy "after this, therefore because of this"...

The positive note here is that my wife asked me to give her some Bible studies on Predestination and God causes all things so she can take and teach in Brazil, and as I was teaching her she conveyed to me that some of her better educated friends have had some minor exposure to the Reformed doctrine and relayed to her the same "phenomenon" that happened to me in 1991: They say that they are tired of the confusion and contradiction of the evangelicalistic message and that, for the little they have learned about the Reformation, the Predestination and Election message and the notion that God causes all things, they believe that THIS CAN SAVE their faith! This is what happened to me in 1991 and by the Grace of God, I am what I am!

My wife told me that one of her friends that is acquiring his diplomat credentials was REQUIRED to read Luther and Calvin to that end, (of course that's because you have to understand these two servants of God if you want to understand Western culture!) and that he, an agnostic, believes now that the message preached and taught by these two reformers can change his mind into that of a Christian! Can you believe that? This is a living EVIDENCE of Election and that "OUR LABOR IN THE LORD IS NOT IN VAIN"!

Praise His name!

Milt

[rlhuckle]

In pondering the immutability and eternality of God, and after realizing that the entirety of reality was the result of a single thought (decree), I'm trying to get my mind around the non-sequential nature (temporally speaking) of eternity and the thought process of God in his immutability and eternality and really understanding the implications of supralapsarianism from a theoretical perspective. In our minds, we comprehend a logical order (often viewed and explained in or as existing in some temporal order as we are temporal beings) --but even speaking of a "logical order" carries some implication of a passage of time (by the very use of the word "order" --which is a temporal term). In eternity, God IS --from which one deduces that all His thoughts ARE. We think of Him "working in us to will and to do"--and even this idea implies a passage of time in the Divine acts--but not from God's perspective in eternity.....as all things ARE complete....an infinity of thoughts existing in the eternal "now" and unchanging --as all are perfect....

Our minds think sequentially and therefore we have a tendency to view (and explain) all things in that manner--often without even realizing it. God's mind is eternal and immutable...all thoughts simultaneous (there's another temporal term) ....

Not sure where I'm trying to go with this...but it helps to write it down....

[Robert R. Higby]

The biggest problem I have with any 'order of decrees' summary, whether describing supra or infra, is that such summaries are always left-to-right in their presentation of the historical unfolding of God's decrees. But as Gordon Clark and others have stated so eloquently, the only way that humans can logically comprehend an order of decrees that in any small measure 'thinks as God thinks' on the matter is this: start with what God's revelation in scripture teaches regarding the climax of history and reason back to the first moment. A right-to-left perspective on the plans of salvation and reprobation. Since God does not react to process as it unfolds and never plans with progressive thinking (totally opposite of the creature), we have to start with where He purposes everything to end up, view that as God's ULTIMATE POSITIVE WILL, and then we can begin to comprehend all that happens beforehand.

[rlhuckle]

Yes I agree, but even when we speak of a right to left manner of thinking, it implies some sort of order (movement) of thought which-- when speaking of eternity and immutability-- tends to be nonsensical when looking at it from the atemporal (eternal now) point of view.

Even when we think of the words"reasonable" and "logical" as attributes that describes God's being and thoughts-- from our temporally based understanding and thinking-- some process (i.e.: end from the beginning; works all things) is implied merely by the use of the words because timely beings always tend to think progressively (no matter which direction we begin from). I think this is a reason so many have trouble with the doctrines of sovereignty and predestination--it is hard for some to comprehend the eternal now where God's decree IS and His thoughts eternally ARE. When we say all things are complete from God's view, we still tend to think this "completion" is the result of some process of thought--but that's not truly the case. That is only the case from OUR view as temporal beings.

[gerhard]

I found this linK in the Supralapsarian page on FaceBook: http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com...ivine-decrees/
Is this an accurate depiction of the order of divine degrees as set forth by various Supra and Infra groups? Aren't all these schemes an attempt to superimpose the human attribute of sequential thought upon God? Aren't the Supras and Infras creating an idol, a god made in their own image of sequential thought?

[Robert R. Higby]

Yes, all attempts to define the Divine decrees as occurring in a sequential order is a form of process theism and thus idolatry (i.e., assuming that God plans the future like creatures do by deciding to do one thing, then another, then another, etc.).

Contemplating the plan of salvation as right-to-left (reasoning from the end to the beginning) is not just another attempt to propose an order of Divine decrees. The contemplation is strictly ours, not God's. It helps us to understand that all of the Divine purposes are really a SINGLE decree, not a series of decrees. The final outcome of history (for both elect and reprobate) is something that God purposed (or purposes) in His decree, delights in as the ultimate goal of creation, and WANTS. God rejects ANY OTHER final outcome and prior circumstances of history as something that He DOES NOT WANT, both in His transcendent self-existence and immanent presence at all times and places.

For me, supralapsarianism is strictly the confession that all of God's purposes (Grace most prominently, but also wrath) supersede any contemplation of alternate scenarios in planning history. At no point does God reason through various possibilities and outcomes, then decide on the best (which may not be 'ideal' to Him). That would be Process Theism.

God's predestination of all events at all times and places for all eternity is a SINGLE decree which is the only plan EVER contemplated by God in all of His attributes.

[MCoving]

I also noticed in the churches I visited in my area that they are all infralapsarians... they do not believe that God controls all things. Sometimes they would talk in their sermons as if they were Supra's but when I asked them during lunch they'd talk of things like God taking His hand off you when you sin, so therefore God does not sin but you do. Its like they want to say God controls all things yet they find terms that just dont make sense. In the end most reformed churches here will not say that God determined for one to sin, God does all the good but not the bad, yet he does control it just isn't the main cause. Its terminology that sounds so odd to me, they like to complicate theology.
I do not yet understand though how Full Preterism or anyones views on the end times would affect ones beliefs in salvation, and God determining all things?

[Robert R. Higby]

Mary: I also noticed in the churches I visited in my area that they are all infralapsarians... they do not believe that God controls all things. Sometimes they would talk in their sermons as if they were Supra's but when I asked them during lunch they'd talk of things like God taking His hand off you when you sin, so therefore God does not sin but you do. Its like they want to say God controls all things yet they find terms that just dont make sense. In the end most reformed churches here will not say that God determined for one to sin, God does all the good but not the bad, yet he does control it just isn't the main cause. Its terminology that sounds so odd to me, they like to complicate theology.

The fact is, 99% of those who profess to be 'Calvinists' are actually Spurgeonists or Fullerists. In no way do they believe in the predestination of all things as a SINGLE positive decree of God, any more than Arminians or Wesleyans believe in such. Fullerists believe in two decrees just like Arminians. One positive decree, one permissive decree (based on bare foreknowledge of certain events that God reluctantly decides to 'sign off' on but has no part in positively purposing).

I do not yet understand though how Full Preterism or anyones views on the end times would affect ones beliefs in salvation, and God determining all things?

It really is not very complicated. The scriptures reveal God's ultimate purposes of redemption and damnation. If one compromises what the Bible has to say about these things, we are left with a view of history where God 'allows' man to determine most things. So we might have a nuclear war that destroys most of humanity; then civilization starts all over again. There is NOTHING in full Preterism that would reject this view of history, since the Earth and its current order of things will continue forever and ever. We might have endless cycles of total destruction and rebirth of the world due to the stupidity of man.