Article: Gospel Unity and Definite Atonement

[Brandan Kraft]

You can view the page at http://www.predestinarian.net/conten...nite-Atonement

[Eileen]

This is a wonderful addition to the forum....the blogs!

And this is a very timely and important reminder of our beloved Gospel and the atonement in its full. Due to recent events here on the forum I, out of curiousity, went to the site that our friends scattered to and was absolutely horrified and greatly saddened by what is being taught there.

After much reading there I realized how that teaching could pollute the mind and confuse the very doctrine of the atonement and cause the blood of Christ to be a shedding in vain. Oh it is dark indeed!

The reminder also that true Gospel unity does not exist in external practices was most edifying as I personally have been struggling with just some of those issues. The focus at times in 'church life' seems to be there and without agreement on those issues we are without unity within the body, another great sadness in my heart.

Thanks for the great teaching on this today and I look forward to more from all those involved.

Grace Alone~

Eileen

[lionovjudah]

May I just ask what a blog is?

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

May I just ask what a blog is?

"Blog" is a progressive terminology crucial to current internet vernacular deriving from two seperate words' "web" & "log"

[lionovjudah]

"Blog" is a progressive terminology crucial to current internet vernacular deriving from two seperate words' "web" & "log"

Now in english please Scott..hahahahahaha

WHat does a blog do or what do we do on a blog?

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

Now in english please Scott..hahahahahaha

WHat does a blog do or what do we do on a blog?

It's how we log "blah blah blah" online

"b-log"

[Brandan Kraft]

This is a wonderful addition to the forum....the blogs!

And this is a very timely and important reminder of our beloved Gospel and the atonement in its full. Due to recent events here on the forum I, out of curiousity, went to the site that our friends scattered to and was absolutely horrified and greatly saddened by what is being taught there.

Same here Eileen. I'm still kind of shocked that one of our own, one who so seemingly loved the truth of absolute free and sovereign grace could be so suckered into the amyraldian/fullerist/neo-calvinistic lie. I know I shouldn't be as I've seen this happen more than once now, it's just that I thought I knew this person better.

After much reading there I realized how that teaching could pollute the mind and confuse the very doctrine of the atonement and cause the blood of Christ to be a shedding in vain. Oh it is dark indeed!

Amen. We must be ever on the defense against such deceptive teaching.

The reminder also that true Gospel unity does not exist in external practices was most edifying as I personally have been struggling with just some of those issues. The focus at times in 'church life' seems to be there and without agreement on those issues we are without unity within the body, another great sadness in my heart.

Once again, I agree. I have much in common with many sovereign grace believers on many of their practices, but if there is not absolute agreement upon the very Gospel that I hold dear to my heart, fellowship is not possible...

[Mrs. Gill]

Bob,

You raise some good points in regard to common grace. I have this imaginary thing I have termed the "graceometer" that I think helps describe some of your points. Imagine you, me , and Brandan on the far right or "hyper/high side. You know, supra, eternal everything, God's love for only the elect, etc. Now, on the far left, you have the hypo/low gracers who like the teachings of common grace, well meant offer, two wills theory, etc. This helps me visualize the differences, and helps me find a place for those in between. THe folks inbetween are those that perhaps don't hold to all we hold to(like maybe they are infra), but perhaps they haven't gone all the way to the left. You make a good point in that those that are on what I call the left, are dangerously close to falling off the edge. That is, arminianism, etc. Brandan and I have talked many times about people that are so called soveriegn grace. You really start talking to them and they speak it, but then out of the other corner of their mouth, WHOA put on the brakes, "I believe in sovereignty, but I believe God has an active AND passive will(this is just and example) HUH?
passive? Are you kidding me? God, passive? Man, that would be scary to think he is passive, or changing on ANYTHING. It has been my experience, unfortunatly, that most sovereign gracers are "sovereign, but with a little me" believers. Well, I just felt like rambling on a bit. I'm sure most readers will disagree, because most probably won't go as far as you or I will go in the "absolute" department. Now, all you infras, don't throw tomatoes at me, ok? I rarely post, so if you respond in a manner in which you need a response, I probably won't get around to it.
Bob, thanks again for your writings.
Angie

[Tobias Crisp]

Bob,

A hearty amen to your post! I was for about 15 years a lost Calvinist and although I believed in limited atonement I usually made it merely a logical conclusion of the other points. Since my conversion I realized not only that this was a fallacy but that limited atonement is central to the gospel message. The whole of the design and intention of the work of Christ as expressed in the various aspects of it (propitiation, expiation, substitution, representation, reconciliation, etc.) cannot be separated from who it was for.

Keep up with the excellent articles.

[Robert R. Higby]

Thanks to all! To respond to one of Angie's points:

You make a good point in that those that are on what I call the left, are dangerously close to falling off the edge. That is, arminianism, etc.

How often have we seen it! Once an Amyraldian reads a 'scholarly' defense of full-fledged Arminianism, such as Wakefield, it quickly becomes apparent that if the paradoxical arguments of 4-point Calvinism are considered valid, the paradoxical arguments of free-will theology are equally valid. The same theological method is used to defend both.

For me, strangely, Limited Atonement came first in the 5-points! Only because of the very language ringing throughout the NT: Christ came for his sheep.

[Mickey]

Well yall I'm in Texas now and I'm now in the Inactive Air Force Reserve for two years (6 years Active duty and now 2 years inactive).

Bob, what you wrote has been something that has caused my heart to sink as often as it inhabits my thoughts. I was attending a Soveriegn Grace Baptist church in Virginia, yet the only thing soveriegn was their profession of the TULIP, but as stated above 'out of the side of their mouth' gushed a mutable god.

During Sunday school a few weeks ago someone brought up common grace and proceeded to talk about how God was showing those that lived in the time of Noah common grace by not destroying them sooner...???? There were a few amens, so I raised my hand and proceeded to explain what we have spoke of here time and time again. Well they didn't take it to well. I was the only person there who dissagreed with common grace. BUT, there was one lady who aproched me afterwards and said that she would rethink her position on it. I was told later that I needed to apologize to the man that I corrected because he was my elder (keep in mind I was not disrespectfull at all, I was actually labeled a fatalist, Dutch Reformed and something else...but I just smiled and said,"you can call me whatever you want.") It was interesting to see how passionate they were about Common Grace. The Pastor even said, " Idon't think I have ever heard anyone disagree with common grace.

Anyway, yall seem to be the only ones that understand and I hope I can be as honest with you as I am with myself. In the past few months I have distanced myself from 'church.' I have come to realize that there aren't many assemblies out there who teach Grace. Bad preaching and teaching have driven me away from attending a local assembly. I know some of you recommended that I do that if I can't find a place of worship here. But I have started to struggle with some sin and I have started to be tolerant of some things that I haven't been in the past. I think it might be from a lack of fellowship. In the mean time I have thought that before I believed a false gosple so when I started to get the facts straight and embraced the Doctrines of Grace that surley God is with me. Since I've come to believe in the Soveriegnty of God my best friends--wifes--family has come to dislike me, I have ridiculed by friends and aledged brothers and sisters in Christ, and I'm struggling with some sin and haven't been able to shake it. Several moths of this have taken their toll and I am at the end of my rope.

Do I just have facts right and am still dead in my sin? I hate asking this because its what my arminian friends say 'Calvinism' does (It makes people worry about if they are elect or not for the rest of their lives). I love the gosple of Grace--it is music to my ears. I love to read about it here at 5solas. But when I hear others talk about it and I know what they believe it makes me sick (literally). Also because I sin and am still learning I have a hard time saying that some people are lost based on their profession. Its just hard for me, I have kinda lost the motivation to tell people they need to repent from their false gosple. I am alone as it is...and I hate that I think this way.

Mike

[wildboar]

When we separate ourselves from the means of grace as provided for us we will certainly come to doubt our own salvation. God has wired us in such a way that reading articles in the privacy of our own home does not satisfy the longings of our soul. There is no perfect church. Churches have varying degrees of purity and I would not stop going to church as long as I could find somewhere to worship where God's sovereign grace is proclaimed even if it is done inconsistently. If I found common grace being proclaimed I would still continue to go to that church until I could find a purer one and spend the time until then trying to reform the church I was in. Common grace is an assumed doctrine by many and some have just never heard a good argument against it. Common grace as we know it today is largely the work of Dutch reformed theology. The PRC which is from the dutch reformed background happens to be the most vocal opponent of common grace and have a slew of literature on it <A href="http://www.prca.org/pamphlets_and_articles.html#Common%20Grace%20and%2 0the%20"Free%20Offer%20of%20the%20Gospel">http://www.prca.org/pamphlets_and_articles.html#Common%20Grace%20and%2 0the%20"Free%20Offer%20of%20the%20Gospel" You might want to give the pastor a copy of Grace Uncommon by Rev. Barry Gritters. Prior to Kuyper "common grace" as a theological term was most often used to speak of God's providence and nothing of how it is used today. Even Kuyper did not go anywhere near as far as the modern proponents.

[Robert R. Higby]

Mike states:

But I have started to struggle with some sin and I have started to be tolerant of some things that I haven't been in the past. I think it might be from a lack of fellowship. In the mean time I have thought that before I believed a false gosple so when I started to get the facts straight and embraced the Doctrines of Grace that surley God is with me. Since I've come to believe in the Soveriegnty of God my best friends--wifes--family has come to dislike me, I have ridiculed by friends and aledged brothers and sisters in Christ, and I'm struggling with some sin and haven't been able to shake it. Several moths of this have taken their toll and I am at the end of my rope.

Do I just have facts right and am still dead in my sin? I hate asking this because its what my arminian friends say 'Calvinism' does (It makes people worry about if they are elect or not for the rest of their lives). I love the gosple of Grace--it is music to my ears. I love to read about it here at 5solas. But when I hear others talk about it and I know what they believe it makes me sick (literally). Also because I sin and am still learning I have a hard time saying that some people are lost based on their profession. Its just hard for me, I have kinda lost the motivation to tell people they need to repent from their false gosple. I am alone as it is...and I hate that I think this way.

I believe, Mike, that many of us have often been at the place that you are right now! The world of evanjellyfish churchianity would tell us in response to this: a man needs brothers, no man is an island, LIVE THE GOSPEL and don't argue it! We all know it full well.

There is no guarantee in the gospel age that we will not have to STAND ALONE in our local community and experience. Just like Noah, Elijah, and so many of the prophets of old had to stand alone. Our pleasures forevermore in Christ are not dependent on PLEASING MEN (Gal. 1:10) to have the blessing of their fellowship based on mushy doctrine! Today, 99.5% of evangelicals want us to please them in our confession and life in order to make ourselves worthy of their fellowship! Forget it, it can't happen. We have to please God rather than men.

On the matter of certain sins, it is a lifelong struggle to pursue holiness in the reverence of God--especially when the world turns against us and rejects our testimony. There is no easy solution but to meditate on the grace of Christ and what he has accomplished to propitiate our sins before the Father! My adminition is to spend increasing time in the Word and prayer in gratitude of the hope that is already within you. The Lord will work over time to get it all in perspective!

Your brother in Christ, --Bob Higby

[ray kikkert]

Anyway, yall seem to be the only ones that understand and I hope I can be as honest with you as I am with myself. In the past few months I have distanced myself from 'church.' I have come to realize that there aren't many assemblies out there who teach Grace. Bad preaching and teaching have driven me away from attending a local assembly. I know some of you recommended that I do that if I can't find a place of worship here. But I have started to struggle with some sin and I have started to be tolerant of some things that I haven't been in the past. I think it might be from a lack of fellowship. In the mean time I have thought that before I believed a false gosple so when I started to get the facts straight and embraced the Doctrines of Grace that surley God is with me. Since I've come to believe in the Soveriegnty of God my best friends--wifes--family has come to dislike me, I have ridiculed by friends and aledged brothers and sisters in Christ, and I'm struggling with some sin and haven't been able to shake it. Several moths of this have taken their toll and I am at the end of my rope.

Do I just have facts right and am still dead in my sin? I hate asking this because its what my arminian friends say 'Calvinism' does (It makes people worry about if they are elect or not for the rest of their lives). I love the gosple of Grace--it is music to my ears. I love to read about it here at 5solas. But when I hear others talk about it and I know what they believe it makes me sick (literally). Also because I sin and am still learning I have a hard time saying that some people are lost based on their profession. Its just hard for me, I have kinda lost the motivation to tell people they need to repent from their false gosple. I am alone as it is...and I hate that I think this way.

Mike

Your not alone Mike, I have been their before to. If one can no longer blush at his/her sin then I say beware. What is man that God is mindful of Him? Sometimes Mike we need a good pummel from God, to bring us to the dust, that in doing so we understand what wretched creatures by nature we are and the all dominating need of the Sovereign grace of God. It is easy to become worried and complainers. How much we have in common with Israel of old. There will always be a difference though in how God works in the hearts of His chosen ones.

Consider this confessional statement from the Canons of Dort.

Article 4. Although the weakness of the flesh cannot prevail against the power of God, who confirms and preserves true believers in a state of grace, yet converts are not always so influenced and actuated by the Spirit of God, as not in some particular instances sinfully to deviate from the guidance of divine grace, so as to be seduced by, and to comply with the lusts of the flesh; they must, therefore, be constant in watching and in prayer, that they be not led into temptation. When these are neglected, they are not only liable to be drawn into great and heinous sins, by Satan, the world and the flesh, but sometimes by the righteous permission of God actually fall into these evils. This, the lamentable fall of David, Peter, and other saints described in Holy Scripture, demonstrates.

[Mickey]

This is why I come here.

Thank you Bob, Ray and Wildboar for the encouraging words. I need to hear the things I believe in my heart from other people sometimes, just so I know that I'm not the only one in the world who struggles. Sin is a repulsive thing, but boy how we love to play with it! Praise God for His glorious grace which he lavishes on us in Christ Jesus and praise God for like minded brothers and sisters!

Soli Deo Gloria

Mike

[BrianSH]

Although this is an old thread I would like to give a reply. I have always noticed and been ridiculed that Sovereign Grace Proponents can give no comfort to those who need it. They know not how to show compassion but are hard as granite. But let me lift my fingers and post that what I have seen in the replies to Mike have been gentle, compassionate, yet straightforward. I for one have felt and do feel the same way that Mike has felt. Everyone has deserted you and none is left. But praise to our Lord and Saviour that God has seen to it that there are places or websites where we can meet with those of likeminds and recieve grace from their lips. How cast down I have been yet the Lord raised me up. I thank God that He has given me a wife who listens and thinks for herself and isn't convinced by man but by Scripture! How gracious He is to have given me a place to fellowship with brethren in my own community.

The words spoken in these posts have encouraged and strengthened me. Thanks.

Brian

[Brandan Kraft]

Promoted to article!

[trav]

How about the ever so popular "sufficient for all, efficient for some" ? Yet another hand full of crap thrown to the "reformed" group to make a true "Limited Atonement" more palatable. The atonement of Jesus Christ was for His elect THAT IS IT!!! And God's grace is given to His elect only! Thank you for your article Brandan.

[Brandan Kraft]

Thank you for your article Brandan.

Bob wrote it. But you're welcome!

[trav]

Thanks Bob. Thanks Brandan for putting it out