Article: The Impotent god of a Sovereign People?

[trav]

You can view the page at http://www.predestinarian.net/conten...vereign-People

[Livelystone]

Hello Travis

It has been a while

Not much can be said on your post that you have not already said. Two interesting points are first, of the lots of people search for a higher power many have all already heard (for the most part) of Christ yet they choose not to choose Jesus. In turn many of them come up with their own definition of "a god" while others join other already established religions.

Second interesting point is seen in your closing scripture where it is noted that in addition to God calling whom He chooses when He chooses, He also is the one that calls us to repentance that without there is no coming to God.

IMO according to Hebrews 6 there is a bit of a catch 22 clause attached to that one because some people who have been calledand have answered the call but have strayed, are at some point not called back....... bummer for them

He.6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That IMO opens up a whole other side to this doctrine of predestination. After all we are seeing someone called, baptized in the Holy Spirit yet return to living in sin without being called to repentance again

Does that not describe many (if not much) of the "Christian religion"

But what on earth would cause someone to essentially leave God and their salvation behind unless...... they are not aware that they have. Amen?..... I think so


Would not the goats who are rejected fall into that group as well as the foolish virgins? After all goats are clean animals and virgins definitely speaks of Christians! So we are seeing christians that are being denied their expected eternal inheritance but are doing so because of foolish ignorance.

Blessings

Doug

[Highlyfavored]

IMO according to Hebrews 6 there is a bit of a catch 22 clause attached to that one because some people who have been calledand have answered the call but have strayed, are at some point not called back....... bummer for them

9**I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are .
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

I would argue here that none are "pulled back", they weren't called in the first place, they were simply tools used by God, woven in his tapestry to get the results he desired.

22 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory;

He.6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That IMO opens up a whole other side to this doctrine of predestination. After all we are seeing someone called, baptized in the Holy Spirit yet return to living in sin without being called to repentance again

Let's say that a few brothers and myself start a neighborhood church. A few families move into the area and like our confession/statement of faith, and decide to join our little community.

Now lets suppose that they are in fact not brothers but unregenerate folks. This becomes apparent and many of them decide to leave.
Have they tasted the good word of God?
Have they got to at least peer beyond the veil?
Now that they've left, do you think they'll have an appetite for the real gospel?

They were added to our little community by God, tasted the good fruits at the table provided by the Holy Spirit (this by no means indicates they were baptized by Him).
How could they come back?

18 For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and I partly believe it.
19 For there must also be heresies among you, that the approved ones may be revealed among you.

Would not the goats who are rejected fall into that group as well as the foolish virgins? After all goats are clean animals and virgins definitely speaks of Christians! So we are seeing christians that are being denied their expected eternal inheritance but are doing so because of foolish ignorance.

You're making a leap here. The "virgins" term is used here to denote a group that belongs to the church/community, belonging to this group does not necessitate election.

It really boils down to this, either God is in control of all things and everything is for his good pleasure, or God is not God. You can't have a partially sovereign God. Reread Ephesians 1.

[Livelystone]

I am taking a leap ??????

A leap is when you discount scripture and go on your own. Something I have not done.

Does God not say that many are called yet few are chosen...... are you going change the definition of someone being called but then refused??????

The Bible and by definition denotes a difference between virgins and chaste virgins........for sure the only true spiritual virgin is one who has never sinned aka the Holy Spirit. Thus Paul says it is good for a man to keep his virgin.

1 Corinthians 7:37
Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

As persons who have the Holy Spirit we are to be as chaste virgins by overcoming sin yet who is there here or anywhere else who has never sinned? So we can only appear as chaste virgins.

However the Holy Spirit although is a virgin within someone, without that person possessing the mind of Christ they are relegated to being a foolish virgin....... going back to He. 6 again, please re-read the first verses and see the difference between foolish and wise virgins as given evidence in the correct knowledge of foundational doctrines that will allow God to move us (those possessing sound doctrine) forward into perfection should He will it.

Pondering the parable of the talents with one individual loosing what he did nothing with, is another good lesson (IMO)

Blessings

Doug

EDIT: I see I have double posted. That was not intended but resulted from trying to use the the quick reply. If a mod would delete my first post it will hide my error for me........... thanks

[Saint Nicholas]

Hello Douglas,

I want to take the liberty of responding to your post #2 in regards to Hebrews Chapter 6: 4-6

You said "IMO according to Hebrews 6 there is a bit of a catch 22 clause attached to that one because some people who have been called and have answered the call but have strayed, are at some point not called back....... bummer for them "

How one interprets passages of scripture are always made subject to a priori pre-supposition/premise.
Please don’t confuse arbitrary presuppositions with scriptural pre-suppositions.

Example of an Arbitrary presupposition: Let’s suppose I do not believe there are any gods at all, that’s my premise. Upon reading the Christian bible, the Koran, or any other religious sect’s writings my main goal then would be to set out and prove the inconsistencies and or seeming contradictions in their books to further support my allegations that there is no God or gods.

We all think and act according to presuppositions and priori considerations. Even you. Not only in scripture study but in life also when making practical, financial, and or moral decisions.

It is of my conviction that when interpreting scripture one must have a firm understanding of the below major points. These points then become the solid rock foundation and premise for interpreting scripture and also for proper discussion and dialogue.

Paradox and Mystery theologians take a compartmental approach to doctrinal and dogmatic issues. Meaning that one premise may be true in one category of theology and in another category that same premise is false. So in their scheme they can teach that all contradictions they deem are in scripture, then can be reconciled. So a premise in their schema can be true and false at the same time . God can never be All sovereign and partially sovereign as some teach, at the same time. He is either ALL or PARTIAL, but never both.

Let’s look at 3 points below.

1. The Sovereignty of God
2. The nature of mans will
3. The work (Gospel) of Jesus Christ.

These are paramount and crucial to a correct process of interpretation.
If we have a correct understanding of the above 3 points , then the passages in Hebrew 6 and 10 are made better able to understand along with other passages in scripture that at face seem to indicate a loss or repudiation of salvation.

There must be ground rules.

Please choose. My presuppositions are in red letters

To point number 1. A. God is Sovereign in all things
B. God is Sovereign in some things
C. God is not Sovereign at all.

Point 2. A. Man’s will is free from God’s will
B. Man’s will is not free nor ever will be from God’s will
　
Point 3. A. Jesus Christ’s death burial and Resurrection effectively accomplished salvation for His people. It’s final. It is finished and complete
B. Jesus Christ’s death burial and Resurrection made salvation only possible, however salvation is dependant on the free choice of man.
　
If as you suspect, the people in Hebrews 6 did fall away from salvation, then you have to attempt to reconcile many other scriptures that would prove otherwise.
　
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away,to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
　
John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

John 6:37-39
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
　
Romans 8:35-39

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he (God/Christ) which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
　
Philippians 2:13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 Peter 1:4-5
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
　
Romans 8:29-31
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
　
　
In light of the above passages provided how can one hold to a view of falling away in Hebrews 6 without setting the scriptures at odds with themselves? Even the writer of Hebrews

If you have some spare time try to listen to my audio teaching on the letter of Hebrews. Hopefully it is still available on P-Net.
I only made it through to Hebrews chapter 5. However I feel the background information on the previous chapters would be helpfull for you to understand.
　
We must always try to understand not only the writer’s goal and intent of writing the letter, but also understand the writer’s core premise that he builds his teaching on. The premise is key to understanding the language and style of communication he exhibits through the language he employs. In this way once we understand the premise of the writer, we can unravel seemingly difficult passages that are misunderstood by some.

The historical background and understanding what audience the letter was written too is also vital.

Having read Hebrews 6:4-6 let me define some basic views of this passage. Again these are basic views that are held within professing Christianity.

First view
The writer is referring to saved regenerate persons who lose, fall away, or repudiate their salvation for ever and eternally.
　
Second view
The writer is referring to saved regenerate persons who lose, fall away, or repudiate their salvation temporarily and at times, however can repent and be restored again on a continuous basis.

Third View
The writer is referring to saved regenerate persons who can never lose, fall away, or repudiate their salvation. And then explains why through the use of logical hypothetical (if). In other words, the writer takes an opponents premise and shows the absurdity of that premise. The absurd premise is one can fall away. I will explain more on this upcoming.

Fourth View
The writer is referring to non-regenerate persons who were only superficially aligned with the new Christian Way but were never converted spiritually.
　
The first view is held by all who believe a regenerate saved person can fall from Grace and the salvation they once had by ultimately committing the unpardonable sin in which they are forever lost. Some Pentecostal groups believe this.

The second view is held by mainly Roman Catholics , Arminians Evangelicals, and Lutherans. They do not see the falling away as a final reprobation of the soul falling away from Christ, but rather a falling away in the realm of sanctification, church involvement, sacramental adherence etc. In this way there is hope for renewal. Others would call this a backslidden state.

The third view is held in some reformed circles.This view holds that the writer of Hebrews employs a non-sequitur approach. Non-Sequitur means: An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence. In others words the writer of Hebrews assumes his opponents premise ie: that one can lose their salvation falling from Grace and then shows it’s absurdity by stating that Christ would have to die again thus submitting Christ to an open shame which is an impossibility. Also that would have rendered Christ’s death non effectual in saving His people. The writer of Hebrews had already established the superiority and completeness of Christ’s death over the old covenant sacrifices previously and then continues throughout the letter of Hebrews to further drive that point home.

Count how many times the words "one" or "once" is used in Hebrews to show Christ as the fulfillment of the old covenant in relation to sacrifices and the priesthood of the old covenant.


The fourth view is also held in some reformed circle. This view holds that these folks were only aligned with Christ superficially and externally, however never were regenerated thus not saved. The language of "once enlightened" "have tasted the heavenly gift" "have become partakers of the Holy Spirit" "have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come" are viewed as superficial and external without a true regeneration.

Both views three and four deny any possibility of falling from Grace thus not losing or repudiating salvation.

Since this writer is an adherent to view three I will spend more time expounding on this view thus attempting to show how those who teach and believe a true regenerate Christian can fall from Grace have made a serious imposition on the efficacy Christ’s death and the Gospel.
　
The letter is mainly addressed to an Hebrew Christian audience, while simultaneously addressing in certain passages Hebrews who were not truly converted along with Christ rejecting Hebrews. Gentiles are not in view.

Hebrew/Jewish people have been born and raised with a steady diet of Mosaic Law. It was very difficult for them to abandon Moses. Judaistic influences and pressures were burdensome for these newly converted Christians.

There many passages in the new testament that support this. Here is one
　
Acts 21:20
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

These Hebrew Christians found great difficulty in breaking from the law. It was their heritage their life. To fully break away was sacrilegious.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible. What is? That’s the crux of his polemic.I’ll explain more later.

Let’s look at these Hebrew Christians.

A) They are "once enlightened." in the Greek " photizo" This same word enlightened is used again in Eph. 1:18, both are in the passive voice

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Again in

Hebrews 10:32
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

There is no indication of a mental assent, short of regeneration, being hinted at in that passage.

In other words, they were the passive recipients of this enlightenment. Their eyes were opened, their ears begin to hear. True regeneration
　
B) They have "tasted of the heavenly gift." better yet, "having tasted." This is the Greek word "geuomai" This same word is used again in:
Matthew 16:28.....Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Also Ref: Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27, Luke 14:24, John 8:52, Heb. 2:9, 1Peter :2:3
　
Hebrews 2:9
9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

'geusamenous' translated as 'tasted' is used in the metaphorical sense of experience.

Christ did not just taste or sample death superficially or externally, but rather literally died.

So the word taste in the above passages refers to real subjective realities. DEATH = TASTE.

They actually partook of the heavenly gift. True regeneration.
　
C) They "were made partakers of the Holy Ghost." The phrase "were made," "having been made" is in the passive voice. It's the Greek word "genethentas," the participle form of "ginomai," which most frequently speaks of something made from nothing. The same word is used in John 1:3..."All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Also Ref: John 1:10,14. These are real and actual realities. They were made in reality partakers of the Holy Ghost. True regeneration.

God in Christ created all things from nothing by the authority of His spoken word. Likewise, in thisHebrews verse, these people were passive recipients of the Spirit of God indwelling them. Through no effort or value within themselves, they were "made," created anew from no substance within themselves, to be the tabernacles of the Holy Spirit.

The word "partakers" is translated from 'metochous,' The author used the same exact word inHebrews 3:1 and 3:14where it is used to describe the believer partaking in the heavenly calling (3:1) and perseverance (3:14). True regeneration
　
　
D) They "have tasted the good word of God." Same explanation as point B. This tasting is real. The Holy Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are Sons of God. The Greek participle "geusamenous," "having tasted," implies their response in understanding God's word, taking it to heart, and being transformed by it.
　
E) They have experienced and tasted "the powers of the world to come.". These people look forward to, and have "tasted," the power - "dunameis" - of the eternal age to come.

That Greek term "dunameis," from which we get the word "dynamite," is most often a reference to miraculous power. It is a miracle when men look beyond themselves to seek the kingdom of God in all its glory and eternal majesty.

All the above statements to me would indicate these people were truly regenerate. Doug, We are in agreement here with this group.

Now my disagreement lies with your conclusions to this matter.

Please read the whole of Hebrews again.

By thinking the writer of Hebrews is teaching these regenerate Hebrew Christian folks can lose or repudiate their salvation, you force the writer to contradict himself. Not only that, you force other writers to contradict, including Jesus Christ Himself.

Hebrews 2:11-13...
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Vs 15...And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
　
　
John 6:37-39
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
　
Now let’s talk about that big "IF"

{it is impossible...}"if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

"if" - that person were to fall away from the faith, it would be impossible to take him back to square one ( repentance ) and renew him all over again. Right?
If the Sacrifice of Christ was not efficacious to save to the uttermost, then what other plan of salvation could ever exist? That’s why if a person can lose their salvation can they as Hebrews revert back to blood of bulls and goats which could not save. It would be impossible!!

Because it is impossible to put Christ on the Cross again. He did it once and He intends that one sacrifice to be eternally effective. So, if - and, again that's a big "if" such a person could walk away from Christ and be damned the cross of Christ was not effectual.
　
I think the passage in debate is a wonderful illustration of a hypothetical situation to demonstrate the foolishness of those who would desire to be Christians, and cling to their Judaism at the same time. These people need to move unto perfection /maturity Heb 6:1 and leave the old covenant ways.

Perpetual sacrifice was ingrained as necessary in their understanding of repentance and forgiveness of sin.

The writer wants to get them out of the temple for good and move on to perfection.

If one approaches Hebrew 6 with Arminian, Augustine, or other views that one can fall from grace, then to me they have ignored the historical setting and main intent of the author.
　
The usage of the terms "impossible" and "if" are not intended by the writer to introduce a new doctrine of falling from grace, but rather employed these words to magnify the all sufficiency of Christ’s one time effectual sacrifice.

The "if" analogy is used quite common in scripture.
　
Galatians 4:15
15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

Is Paul saying there is a real possibility of plucking out literal eyes? NO. These terms are used to magnify and bolster ones loyalty and allegiance.
　
Mark 13:22
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Is Christ our Lord’s usage of the "if" teach any possibility of seduction toward the elect. NO. The term is used to magnify the greatness of deception.

Hebrews 6:1
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.

The Levitical sacrificial system was not effective to the saving of the soul and a permanent repentance.

Hebrews 7:24-27
　
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 9:11-13
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
　
John 6:37-39
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

In closing, I hope this paper has been helpful to you Douglas.

In Christ,
Nicholas

[trav]

Nick,
Thank you for that, it was priceless!

[MCoving]

Travis excellent post, I like many of Vincent Cheungs writings he is not perfect by any means but he has some very biblical Truths that he teaches on. He is one theologian in this modern day time that I enjoy reading. Just as one realizes that no human is perfect they may know the Gospel, and they may have an understanding of Scripture but they are not God and thus have imperfections, and are still learning themselves. The Bible is the only true book but I do enjoy many of his writings and other theologians in the past. Thanks for sharing your insight as well, I completely agree.

[trav]

Thank you Mary, this was actually an essay that I wrote for one of my college classes last year; you can imagine how well it was received. Haha! I can only tell the truth, I'm not concerned with who is offended by it because the truth is awesome! It's good to hear from you Mary, I hope all is well with you. Lord bless you!