Do you believe that Romans 1:18-32 applies to all men ever born or just to Israel? Thanks for all comments. I just want some input from those on this forum on this. Ward Fenley thinks these verses only apply to Israel because he says it's in the 3rd person in the Scriptures. I would love to know what you guys/gals think. Thanks Brethren.
Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
My brief answer is "all men" Paul shifts his focus to Jews in Chapter 2. demonstrating that whether with or without law, they both (Jew/Gentile) are still in sin. And conversely with or without law they both (Jew/Gentile) by faith alone are Justified. God is no respector of persons.Originally Posted by trav
Do you believe that Romans 1:18-32 applies to all men ever born or just to Israel? Thanks for all comments. I just want some input from those on this forum on this. Ward Fenley thinks these verses only apply to Israel because he says it's in the 3rd person in the Scriptures. I would love to know what you guys/gals think. Thanks Brethren.
There is much much more I could add Trav, but this is my short answer.
Nicholas
And he said , Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
trav (06-11-2011)
When I read that passage verse 7 in chapter 1, says to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints. Paul was probably speaking as Nicholas shows to every gentile/jew, whomever he was writing to and beloved by God and called as saints. Seems pretty clear that all who are beloved would mean anyone that's in Rome, at that time is whom he was writing to.
Also says in verse 5 to the Gentiles, and whom you also were called. So another indication its gentiles and jews, but then in 7 he says to ALL who are beloved of God. To all whom are saints.
I like how this chapter also says that it is from Christ we have received our grace and apostleship.
Also more verses below at times it seems he is speaking only to the Jew, but his statements are that all beloved of God, all saint, all Gentile/Jew. That paul is eager to preach the Gospel to those in Rome also, he makes mention of this at verse 15.
Good read thanks Travis!
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
trav (06-11-2011)
Nick and Mary,
I agree with both of you and thank you for your input I very much appreciate it. I had never heard the view that Ward Fenley put forth as I mentioned in my opening post.
Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
Do you believe that Romans 1:18-32 applies to all men ever born or just to Israel?
Neither. It applies to devils (the reprobate only). It isn't until 2:1 that Paul begins addressing the pre-regeneration elect descendants of Abraham in reminding them that they are just as without hope and without God in their experience prior to knowledge of the gospel.
Paul speaks in the 3rd person--VERY TRUE! He is referring to devils who happen to presently dwell in an earthly body.
And if we now cast our eyes over the nations of the earth, we shall find that, instead of possessing the pure religion of the Gospel, they may be divided either into infidels, who deny the truth; or politicians who make religion a stalking horse for their ambition; or professors, who walk in the trammels of orthodoxy, and are more attentive to traditions and ordinances of men than to the oracles of truth.
--Samuel Adams
Robert in response to your statement, I felt it necessary to offer a more in depth explanation into this matter according to my understanding of this passage.
I do agree that 18-32 describes reprobates. We agree here! However your answer "neither" is a bit confusing to me.
Reprobation is not confined to Israel only. Reprobation is universal with all non-elect. There are no ethnic barriers in reprobation.
So in answering Trav’s question, of course 18-32 refers to ALL reprobate men rather than only reprobate Jews. How can they be "neither" bro. Bob?
Here is a longer explanation of Romans 1:18-32 for all visiting the forum.
The audience in the opening of the letter are not exclusively Gentile Christians but rather a mixture of Jewish and Gentile believers (Acts 2:5-11). This helps to set the historical context.
There were deep seated prejudices between these two groups for a number of reasons that Paul will eventually address in this letter and other letters also.
16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
17 "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith"
Paul in the above verses starts by giving the Good News of the Gospel of our righteousness first. The just shall live by faith in this gospel. This is the Good News for the elect only who are the just, and will all come to faith via regeneration.
I have highlighted in blue "Jew first, and also to the Greek" for a reason. I feel this is important to Paul for two reason.
One, to break down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile in Christ, and secondly to show that whether it be the "Gospel of Salvation" for the elect or the "Wrath of God" for the non-Elect ,it would also be jointly shared without discrimination to Jew and Gentile alike. God is no respecter of persons in this matter.
From Verses 18-32 Paul now is giving his mixed ethnic audience the Bad News of the wrath of God for non-elect reprobates.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
God Created:
1) Elect Angels -Spirits
2) Reprobate Angels -Spirits
3) Elect Men (women)
4) Reprobate Men (women)
This verse applies to all reprobate men (women)Jew and Gentile alike. Now those who contend that 18-32 is referring to Jews only, may argue that Gentiles never had the truth. That is of the Law and the oracles of God from Moses and the Prophets forward. However the law was added to show sin exceeding sinful.
The truth of God and his hatred of sin existed from the very beginning with the creation of the heavens, earth , animals, and man.
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
The them is referring back to the men in verse 18. The non-elect.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Objective truth will always be truth whether mankind believes it or not.
The soul and will of each created reprobate soul is not detached from will of God. God exercises a complete and comprehensive control over each soul. God is active in the will of the reprobate. Not passive.
Each reprobate soul has been created with an alarm system. This alarm system is his conscience. Intrinsically when these reprobate souls sin against God (with or without law) they experience guilt.
Reprobate mankind has always tried to alleviate and suppress this guilt. This very guilt is placed in the human condition by God to testify that all men Elect and Reprobate are accountable to God. However for the sake of the Elect only God takes our guilt away by the Gospel. But not so for reprobate mankind.
Objective truth is still truth whether we believe it or not. The very creation of the world was objective truth enough to testify of a creator God. Men are without excuse.
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Nimrod’s religion is one early example of pagan mystery religion. Creating statues/idols of animals and men to identify with their corrupt gods. Fools say in their heart there is no God.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I can see in the above verses an evolution of wickedness starting from holding truth in unrighteousness (18) to a complete searing of the conscience, by actually taking pleasure in unrighteousness(32).
Admittedly I hold to the much hated view of Equal Ultimacy. So in anticipation of some questions that may arise from those who do not share my view, I will offer this one verse
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NASB)
9 For God has not destined us (elect) for
wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
In Christ,
Nicholas
And he said , Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
GraceAmbassador (06-13-2011)
Thanks Nicholas sorry I replied to previous verses not correct ones lol yes Paul is talking about nonbelievers, the reprobate and not just Israel but all. As it says.. all ungodliness of men who supress the Truth. But we also know the reason why they supress truth. Is because God either didn't create them as His children or they are still walking blind and Lost. Also says they knew of God, but they didn't really know God, believe His Truths or submit to Him. We have a lot who claim to know of God these days but they are not His.
Though I wonder.. Paul is talking about specifc group? They did this, and they made man idols, and they slept with same sex, sounds like he is. Thinking of specific group in that time period. But also generalizing reprobates. Who was Paul referring to? Men sleeping with men, unnatural ways, manmade idols, they knew of God but turned from Him.
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
Nicholas: Reprobation is universal with all non-elect. There are no ethnic barriers in reprobation.
I agree! The question I was answering is, "Do you believe that Romans 1:18-32 applies to all men ever born or just to Israel?" Unless "all men ever born are reprobates" (which they are not, some are elect even though conceived in iniquity), the correct answer to the question is "neither". To me it is simple.
I was not discussing the issue of ethnicity at all; there are certainly reprobates among all ethnic peoples! --Robert
And if we now cast our eyes over the nations of the earth, we shall find that, instead of possessing the pure religion of the Gospel, they may be divided either into infidels, who deny the truth; or politicians who make religion a stalking horse for their ambition; or professors, who walk in the trammels of orthodoxy, and are more attentive to traditions and ordinances of men than to the oracles of truth.
--Samuel Adams
Brandan Kraft (06-15-2011), trav (06-15-2011)
Thanks for your response Robert. You and I agree here.
The real underlying problem is that you and I understood the "question" differently and both answered correctly to our understanding of the question.
That's why it is extremely important that when someone submits a single "question" or an "either or question" that they first share their understanding of that question.
I have seen other forums also who share this same problem. Viewers answer differently according to their interpretation of the question. Consequently the dialogue and debate becomes rather silly for lack of understanding the "premise" in the first place.
From now on, unless a person qualifies his or her question with their understanding of the question, for me it would be useless to enter any meaningfull dialogue.
We must debate the salient point of disagreement once that is established.
Nicholas
And he said , Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
Nick,
I apologize for not being clearer on my original question. What I posted is all that I had to go on. It stemmed from an ongoing debate on Facebook between Ward Fenley and various others. I was just looking for your help on this topic.
Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
Dont worry brother.
Peace and Joy in Christ,
Nicholas
And he said , Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
I accept full responsibility for the confusion; this is one of my pet issues. Most expositors view Rom. 1:18 thru 2:20 as a 'level' exposition of the universality of sin (since all are in sin), I don't. It is clear to me that Paul contrasts the obviously reprobate in 1:18ff with those among mankind (both Jew and Gentile) who profess to worship the true God in 2:1 thru 3:20. In the latter group there are SOME elect, even though all are equally under the condemnation of sin and completely depraved before coming to a knowledge of God's truth of Grace in Jesus Christ.
And if we now cast our eyes over the nations of the earth, we shall find that, instead of possessing the pure religion of the Gospel, they may be divided either into infidels, who deny the truth; or politicians who make religion a stalking horse for their ambition; or professors, who walk in the trammels of orthodoxy, and are more attentive to traditions and ordinances of men than to the oracles of truth.
--Samuel Adams
trav (06-19-2011)
Mr. Higby,
This may be something that y'all have covered before, but what is your view on presuppositional apologetics. I am speaking in the vein of Bahnsen, VanTill, etc.... If this has been wrangled over already let me know and I will search for past threads. Thank you.
Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
I believe in the core premise of presuppositional apologetics but recognize there are differences in the methodology of presuppositionalists (Gordon Clark, Cornelius Van Til, and Greg Bahnsen are all different). So I can't 'name a name' whom I would endorse fully on this (though I am closest to Clark).
To be sound, apologetics must be grounded in Deductive reasoning starting with the propositions of God's revelation. Inductive reasoning of the nature of God, based on principles derived from observing the material universe, will always end up with man creating a god in his own image.
And if we now cast our eyes over the nations of the earth, we shall find that, instead of possessing the pure religion of the Gospel, they may be divided either into infidels, who deny the truth; or politicians who make religion a stalking horse for their ambition; or professors, who walk in the trammels of orthodoxy, and are more attentive to traditions and ordinances of men than to the oracles of truth.
--Samuel Adams
Brandan Kraft (06-22-2011), Eileen (06-26-2011), Saint Nicholas (06-22-2011)
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