Assurance of Salvation

[alt731]

I have taken the liberty of moving these posts from the "How Important is The Millennium" thread to this new thread.

This keeps the two subjects seperate.

Nicholas

Most of the well-published teachers in the first few centuries of 'christianity' taught the free-will heresy

ALT731 says........Well, Calvin might also have taught the free will heresy by that measure. I expect they had a different understanding of free will to what we often call libertarian free will. Libertarian free will doesn't exist, of course. However, the term “free will” can have different senses. For example, it can mean that we are free to choose as we will, without threat. It can also mean we are free to choose as we will without obligation (indeed, it is used in scripture in this very sense; free will offerings). Perhaps (and I'm only saying "perhaps" - I'm not a historian and I don't know) the early Christians were concerned with a rise of fatalism in the early church. Perhaps people were reading Paul, and concluding (wrongly) that God was in the business of forcing the human will at gunpoint (as it were) to do whatever he wanted it to do, rather than subtly working in the will to change it into a new creation. Therefore, the early church fathers responded to this by explaining that there is no salvation apart from works. The fatalists might have been concluding that there certain saved people did not go onto do good works (contrary to the teaching that saved people will inevitably be sanctified). Therefore, the early church fathers responded to this by explaining that there is no salvation apart from works.

Now: wouldn't you agree that salvation is unto good works, and therefore all whom God saved at the cross (not by works) go onto good works? Wouldn't you agree that everybody who is saved at one point in their lives confesses Jesus as Lord? Wouldn't you agree that those who remains lazy, gluttonous, drunkard, reviler, etc.... won't be going to heaven? If this is so, then you agree in a sense that there is no salvation apart from good works, for everybody who goes to heaven has good works. Furthermore, surely you know that God sweetly and delicately changes the wills of his his people that they might have contrition, a fuller knowledge of their depravity and the glory of the Lord, and a desire to have salvation from him. Therefore, wouldn't you agree that God does not belligerently force the wills of his elect to change? In this sense, those wills are free from this kind of bullying; men come to the Lord by free will, not by forced will.

How do you know for sure that the early church did not mean this, rather than what arminians believe?

[Robert R. Higby]

All of the elect are saved 'unto good works' that God has foreordained they shoud walk in, on that point we are agreed. The doctrine that some of us will never agree with is works-based assurance based on James 2:14-21. The difference between the two is infiinte.

If we accept Calvin's doctrine of two justifications--justification 'before God' in Pauline teaching and justification 'before men' in the book called James, then we are teaching works based assurance--WE must be justified before OURSELVES in assurance that there is a sufficient level of external works in our lives to prove ourselves adopted of God.

Of course, scripture doesn't say what will happen exactly in the millennium, but that's no reason not to believe in it. After all, we aren't told exactly what will happen in the new heavens and new earth.

The new heavens and earth are the consummation; the first and pre-eminent creation. In that final state the judgment is realized; all know the Lord. Since the scriptures do not speak of a milennium at all, we have no need to speculate about it because unless there is a positive teaching we are not bound by it. But scripture is abundantly clear that there is no future salvation after the final return of Christ--we could debate that endlessly.

[alt731]

If we accept Calvin's doctrine of two justifications--justification 'before God' in Pauline teaching and justification 'before men' in the book called James, then we are teaching works based assurance--WE must be justified before OURSELVES in assurance that there is a sufficient level of external works in our lives to prove ourselves adopted of God.

Ah, well, I don't believe in assurance by examining good works. I do, however, think that if our conscience is testifying against us because we are sinning (even if our conscience is only giving us a 'little' prick, such that at one level we do know we are sinning; even if it is merely a doubt) then we cannot have assurance. For how can we have assurance when our conscience is testifying against us ("Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God" 1Jn.3:21)? So, when we have good works (in place of doubt or evil works of any kind) we have a clear conscience; and when we have a clear conscience, the Spirit of God (i.e. not good works themselves, but the Spirit who also gave us good works) testifies that we are saved: "let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed [i.e. works] and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him" (1Jn.3:18-19).

You might be wondering, "what is the difference between what you have just said, and what many Calvinists believe?". I've already explained part of the difference (i.e. that it is the Spirit who testifies, not the works themselves), but the significant difference is this: When we have a clear conscience (by good works in place of evil works) and when the Spirit (alone) testifies that we are God’s own, it is not by examining our own works that we know we are saved. Indeed, if we are examining our own works then we are doing a downright evil thing, and thus cannot have assurance (for to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing is utterly sinful). Believers just have (without any thought of their own good works) a certain peace in their hearts as the Spirit testifies to their souls of their assurance. The thought, "Have I got enough good works? Let me examine my good works to see." never even occurs to them!

I know that this is true in my own life, for I have found that I have never had assurance after examining my own works. Whenever I have examined my own works, I have found (in the place of true assurance) a sort of ugly, fake assurance that feels more like pride. But then when I say, "Lord! Lord! Save me from this pride! O what wretch I am! I sin against you all the day long, and I dare to have pride in my own works! O foolish man that I am! Save me loving Lord for your name's sake. Save my from this pride! Save me from my sins! I pray in the saviour's name, which is, Jehovah saves [i.e. Jesus]!" then, when the Lord has answered my cry, and all thoughts of my own good works are gone from my mind; and I am looking only to the wounds of Christ (without any thought of, "Wow! Look at me! I'm looking to Jesus! I'm so good!" [and the lack of this thought is possible only by God’s mercy, which we should pray for]) I find that here I have assurance. But I could never have this assurance if at the same time as all this was happening, my conscience was testifying to me that I was still sinning and intent on continuing. So, as I see it, good works (i.e. turning from sin and obeying God’s commands) do not give assurance when we examine them; but, they (having been wrought by the Holy Spirit at work within us-Phil.2:13) give assurance in a round about way, by providing us with a clear conscience, to which the Spirit adds a certain peace and knowledge of salvation.

Therefore, the verse: "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments" (1Jn.5:2-5) is true, but, it is only true in the light of this verse: "he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." (1Jn.3:24) and this: "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit." (1Jn.4:13). And any who interpret 1Jn.5:2-5 as a command to examine our own good works (as opposed to simply having good works: For it says, "when we...keep" not, "when we...examine"), are violating this commandment: "let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth" (Mt.6:3).

I add to this only one more thing: That often (I wouldn't be willing to say 'always' without further meditation on the matter), at those times when God’s people feel Godly sorrow (which is not quite same thing as Godly fear), they are also assured by the Spirit of their own salvation; and thus their sorrow is mingled with a particular sort of joy, and a particular sort of knowing, that while it is good for the sorrow to continue for a time, it will nevertheless come to an end and only the joy shall remain (with Godly fear, which should always be present).

What do you think concerning this whole matter? And how do you interpret what the Lord has said in his scriptures by his Spirit?

Since the scriptures do not speak of a milennium at all, we have no need to speculate about it...

What do you make of this: "they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rv. 20:6)? Surely you see that the scriptures here speak of a millennium (a thousand years) regardless of how you interpret it. That is, whether you think that this, "thousand years" is some kind of very long period of grace that we are currently in (according to the perfect number of years that the Lord has appointed), or whether you think of it as the first 1000 years of the church, or whether you think of it as a long period of grace that will come in the future, or whether you think of it as a litteral 1000 year period that will come in the future—surely however you see it—you believe in it? I have to say, if you do not accept the book of Revelation as inspired by God, then you have certainly taken away from it (for you have taken away the whole thing!), and whoever takes away from it will be blotted out of the book of life and will perish in hell: "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" (Rv. 22:19).

Also, may I ask, if indeed you do not believe that Revelation is scripture, then do you accept that those who do think of it is inspired by God and scriptural, must, if they are being true to the text, interpret it as saying that those who reject Revelation as scripture shall not inherit eternal life?

Well, I pray that God will bless you and keep you, and make his face to shine upon you, and give you peace and full assurance. Amen.

[MCoving]

alt731 Forgive me but I may or may not understand what you just wrote about assurance. It seemed you were saying its not about works, but then it is to a degree. OR maybe you were trying to say its about the spirit who works in you, and thats how you can tell of assurance. I could be wrong though.
My thoughts on whether someone can be assured that they are a child of God is this... if they truly believe the Gospel, and believe they are a child of God then they can have assurance. It has to do with knowing ones position, and understanding that God choose them before the foundation of the world to be His child and nothing can change that. I am sure of one thing in life, and that is that God is my Savior and Father and I am his daughter. That's all I need. I know that my God is sufficient for me and my life here, that He has done all things from my salvation to my belief, to my works, to my repentance, etc. I am nothing and He is everything, I am a wicked person but in Christ I am clean and forgiven. I am nothing by myself I am everything in Christ.
Its the Holy Spirit in me with testifies to my position as a child of God. I do not need works to assure me that I am His.

[alt731]

Its the Holy Spirit in me with testifies to my position as a child of God. I do not need works to assure me that I am His.

Ah yes, I agree. It is the Spirit that testifies, not works. However, ask yourself the question, At those times when you are sinning (that is, while you are in indulging in sin; or indeed, after you have indulged in sin and remain un-repentant) does the Holy Spirit testify to you that you are a child of God? I believe that the scripture makes it clear: While God's people are indulging in sin and wickedness; while they are backsliding and doing evil, the Spirit never simultaniously testifies to their own salvation; and thus, while they are indulging in sin, they have no assurance from the Spirit. They may, of course, have fake, fleshly assurance (but this is not the same thing).

If you disagree with what I have just said, ask youself: Do you seriously believe that David was being assured by the Holy Spirit of his own salvation, while (at the same time) he was committing adultery with Bathsheba and ordering the murder of Uriah? It is a foolish notion.

However, if you agree with what I said above (i.e. that the Spirit does not assure his people while they are indulging in sin) then you must recognise that not indulging in sin has a part in assurance. It does not do the assuring itself! However, it does open the way (as it were) for the the Spirit to assure his people. Now, lack of sinful works (whether it be a lack of sins of omission or a lack of sins of comission) is the same thing as good works. For example, if God commands men to help the poor, and they lack not helping the poor, then it means they are helping the poor. So, either we are doing what we should be doing, or we are doing what we shouldn't be doing. Therefore, the good works (i.e. lack of evil works) of God's people, open up the way for the Spirit (not the works themselves) to assure them.

What do you think?

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear before.

May the God of grace be with you.

[Highlyfavored]

Ah yes, I agree. It is the Spirit that testifies, not works. However, ask yourself the question, At those times when you are sinning (that is, while you are in indulging in sin; or indeed, after you have indulged in sin and remain un-repentant) does the Holy Spirit testify to you that you are a child of God? I believe that the scripture makes it clear: While God's people are indulging in sin and wickedness; while they are backsliding and doing evil, the Spirit never simultaniously testifies to their own salvation; and thus, while they are indulging in sin, they have no assurance from the Spirit. They may, of course, have fake, fleshly assurance (but this is not the same thing).

If you disagree with what I have just said, ask youself: Do you seriously believe that David was being assured by the Holy Spirit of his own salvation, while (at the same time) he was committing adultery with Bathsheba and ordering the murder of Uriah? It is a foolish notion.

Ask yourself these questions:

• How much is enough?
• Doesn't grace stop being grace if your assurance is qualified, or is dependent upon your behavior?
• How is what you've stated here any different than the law?

However, if you agree with what I said above (i.e. that the Spirit does not assure his people while they are indulging in sin) then you must recognise that not indulging in sin has a part in assurance. It does not do the assuring itself! However, it does open the way (as it were) for the the Spirit to assure his people. Now, lack of sinful works (whether it be a lack of sins of omission or a lack of sins of comission) is the same thing as good works. For example, if God commands men to help the poor, and they lack not helping the poor, then it means they are helping the poor. So, either we are doing what we should be doing, or we are doing what we shouldn't be doing. Therefore, the good works (i.e. lack of evil works) of God's people, open up the way for the Spirit (not the works themselves) to assure them.

What do you think?

From your statements I find you to be a conditionalist.

In your interpretation, your assurance comes from yourself, and you are exalting yourself above God. In that case, one would have to conclude that there is no need for Christ.

This is not the Gospel!

[Saint Nicholas]

Ah yes, I agree. It is the Spirit that testifies, not works. However, ask yourself the question, At those times when you are sinning (that is, while you are in indulging in sin; or indeed, after you have indulged in sin and remain un-repentant) does the Holy Spirit testify to you that you are a child of God? I believe that the scripture makes it clear: While God's people are indulging in sin and wickedness; while they are backsliding and doing evil, the Spirit never simultaniously testifies to their own salvation; and thus, while they are indulging in sin, they have no assurance from the Spirit. They may, of course, have fake, fleshly assurance (but this is not the same thing).

If you disagree with what I have just said, ask youself: Do you seriously believe that David was being assured by the Holy Spirit of his own salvation, while (at the same time) he was committing adultery with Bathsheba and ordering the murder of Uriah? It is a foolish notion.

However, if you agree with what I said above (i.e. that the Spirit does not assure his people while they are indulging in sin) then you must recognise that not indulging in sin has a part in assurance. It does not do the assuring itself! However, it does open the way (as it were) for the the Spirit to assure his people. Now, lack of sinful works (whether it be a lack of sins of omission or a lack of sins of comission) is the same thing as good works. For example, if God commands men to help the poor, and they lack not helping the poor, then it means they are helping the poor. So, either we are doing what we should be doing, or we are doing what we shouldn't be doing. Therefore, the good works (i.e. lack of evil works) of God's people, open up the way for the Spirit (not the works themselves) to assure them.

What do you think?

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear before.

May the God of grace be with you.

1 John 1:5-10

5. This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

1 John 2:1-2

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

2. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Hello John,

I may be wrong here and you can correct me if that be so, but it seems to me that you are saying that when a regenerate (born from above) child of God commits act of sin, due to those acts of sin this believer can no longer have any assurance of salvation. Would this be an accurate assessment of your understanding?

Question:

Do you sin everyday either by acts of commission against God’s perfect righteousness and or by non-acts of omission from God’s perfect righteousness for the things we ought to do that pertain to a perfect righteousness?

In speaking for myself I can only say that there was never a moment in my regenerate life that I doubted or questioned my salvation. I have had assurance of my salvation in Jesus Christ from day one of God granting me repentance to faith in Christ Alone.

I sin daily because I still dwell in a body of sin and death. If I say that I have no sin, I deceive myself, and the truth is not in me.
　
Do I desire to sin? NO "for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find."

Has God granted me a penitent heart? YES! That’s why I can say as my brother Paul said " O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

I also have victory because I have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for my sins.

So in conclusion by Faith alone in Christ’s perfect righteousness alone that was reckoned to me, I can walk in peace and assurance all the days of my life. Faith alone is the answer and cause to a clear conscience. Sin and my corrupt flesh can never haunt me again. My flesh died and was been buried with the law.

From faith to faith. The just shall live by faith. Simul Justus et Pecator

Nicholas

[trav]

Nick, I am with you, I daily do what I don't want to do but I know that my righteousness and acceptance with God is in Christ alone. I hate the fact that I sin (it seems) every second of my life. I'm daily carrying this body of death; I've committed so much sin to screw up my life, but I keep going back to Jesus and thanking Him for His mercy and grace.

[Dustin]

Trav, you have just spoken my own struggles, thank you brother!

[MCoving]

Ah yes, I agree. It is the Spirit that testifies, not works. However, ask yourself the question, At those times when you are sinning (that is, while you are in indulging in sin; or indeed, after you have indulged in sin and remain un-repentant) does the Holy Spirit testify to you that you are a child of God? I believe that the scripture makes it clear: While God's people are indulging in sin and wickedness; while they are backsliding and doing evil, the Spirit never simultaniously testifies to their own salvation; and thus, while they are indulging in sin, they have no assurance from the Spirit. They may, of course, have fake, fleshly assurance (but this is not the same thing).

If you disagree with what I have just said, ask youself: Do you seriously believe that David was being assured by the Holy Spirit of his own salvation, while (at the same time) he was committing adultery with Bathsheba and ordering the murder of Uriah? It is a foolish notion.

However, if you agree with what I said above (i.e. that the Spirit does not assure his people while they are indulging in sin) then you must recognise that not indulging in sin has a part in assurance. It does not do the assuring itself! However, it does open the way (as it were) for the the Spirit to assure his people. Now, lack of sinful works (whether it be a lack of sins of omission or a lack of sins of comission) is the same thing as good works. For example, if God commands men to help the poor, and they lack not helping the poor, then it means they are helping the poor. So, either we are doing what we should be doing, or we are doing what we shouldn't be doing. Therefore, the good works (i.e. lack of evil works) of God's people, open up the way for the Spirit (not the works themselves) to assure them.

What do you think?

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear before.

May the God of grace be with you.

Thank you for your response in clearing up what your position is. God is the Teacher, I only pray He begins to give you more understanding. It comes with an open heart a desire to truly know the Truth. Do you ever question what you believe and why you have believed that?
I hear what you are saying, and thanks God is so wonderful He is with me! He provides so much grace.

Let me ask you this would you rather be scared to loose your salvation or completely assured that you never will? Don't you think a Loving Father would want to assure His children of their place in His Family?

After answering those... then think does it make sense to say we loose assurance when we sin?

Our assurance is in the fact we have the Holy Spirit.. it never leaves us. We have the mind of Christ it never leaves. We have Christ as our sacrificial lamb, as our mediator, we are saved through Christ. Its not about us. Are you certain you are a child of God right now? If so then you can always have assurance, even when you are sinning because we have the Holy Spirit. It doesn't leave us when we sin, we don't become children of Satan when we sin. Does not God love us when we sin? Are we not still His?

Then why can't we have full assurance! I am absolutely certain I am a child of God, I never doubt that. Its a gift God Himself gives, just as precious as His Grace and ForgiveNess is His Assurance. God won't take my position as His child away from me, His Word is clear on that. So why would He take assurance or the Spirit away? Having the Spirit is our Assurance we are savedd.

Let me find the verse I'm thinking of.... but think about what you want, and do you believe that God loves you enough to always give you assurance even when your sinning. He loved us enough to send Christ, while they were yet sinners christ died for them. I think if God can sacrifice His Son for us, he can give us assurance that never waivers. AMEN!! hehe I love my God and all He does for me.

[MCoving]

Verse is Romans 8 Spirit testifies with ours that we are children of God. That doesn't change thus we can always have assurance. Here's a link also talking about assurance: http://bible.org/seriespage/assurance-salvation

[alt731]

I would firstly like to thank you all for replying to this thread. This thread seems to be dealing with two issues now: The Millennium and Assurance, but primarily assurance. However, I have a feeling this thread is going to move back from assurance to the Millennium in its emphasis, and that the two topics are going to become intermingled. Does anybody know how to get the thread name changed to: "Millennium and Assurance"?

Though it is my own position that seems to be provoking the most controversy, I can't possibly respond to everything that has been said, and these are obviously very large issues. Also, just so you know for future reference, I am, like yourselves (I expect), very busy; therefore, you should only expect to find responses from me posted at the weekend, when I actually have time to write them.

I will now respond to various points that various people have made. However, please, if you are going to respond to this post, read the whole thing.

it seems to me that you are saying that when a regenerate (born from above) child of God commits act of sin, due to those acts of sin this believer can no longer have any assurance of salvation. Would this be an accurate assessment of your understanding?

Ah, not quite. Let me take some time to outline my position.

I believe that a regenerate man can have true assurance of salvation, and that this assurance (not salvation itself, but the assurance of it) can be lost it through sinning. Of course, nobody can ever loose salvation, for if Christ has died for a man, then that man is saved forever. However, my position (like that of Calvin, and all the early Puritans such as William Perkins, not that these people matter) is this: A man for whom Christ died (that is, a man who is saved) can come to know that Christ died for him (that is, he can come to know for sure that that he is saved before he gets to heaven). However, the same man can go onto doubt that Christ died for him; or to forget that Christ died for him; or to in some way to loose a grip on the fact that Christ died for him. Since assurance, in essence, is simply the Spiritual conviction that 'Christ died for me and therefore I am saved' it is therefore possible for a man who once had this conviction to go onto doubt it or forget it at times. But this does not mean it is gone for good!

Now, believing, "Christ died for me" (i.e. assurance) does not make you saved! It does not justify you. God’s people are justified by the blood of Christ alone; not by faith and not by works. When Jesus said, "it is finished" he meant it.

Of course, in another sense, men are justified by faith apart from works; and in yet another sense, men are justified by both faith and works. But these are altogether separate issues. They each concern justification as follows:

1) Only the blood of Jesus cleanses from sin; and God's wrath was propitiated only by the blood of Jesus. Therefore, only the blood of Jesus was needed for God to be eternally at peace with those for whom Jesus died (i.e. those who were chosen in him from before the foundation of the world). This is justification by Christ's atoning sacrifice alone; not by works, and not by faith!

2) It is by God-given faith that the elect look to the wounds of Jesus for their justification. It is not by their own will (i.e. their own choice) that they do this; for it was God’s will to give them this faith against their own natural will. So, it is not by works, nor by choices that the elect look to Christ for salvation, and to his wounds for justification. Rather, it is by faith alone. In this sense, justification is by faith alone. Many so called, "modern Calvinists" seem to be fond of saying, "ah; but though it was not my choice to have faith; it still felt like my choice when I obtained faith". Frankly, I expect that such people have not obtained true, God-given faith at all, for when a believer comes to faith it does not 'feel' as though he has chosen anything! Rather, it feels just as though you have been awakened to the knowledge that you are a totally depraved sinner and headed to hell, and that the only (i.e. will and works don't come into it) possible way for men to have eternal life is by the provision of God in Jesus Christ. And then, one seeks the Lord for salvation, and discovers that one's prayer is answered, suddenly finding that one believes in Christ for all one's righteousness. It doesn't feel as though you have done anything at all! I feels like it is all of grace! Looking to Christ alone for salvation is faith; and the elect neither obtain it by their will, nor by their works. This is justification by faith alone.

3) God places an emblem upon his people that they are his children: This emblem is both faith and works together. That is to say, both faith and works together testify of the justification that comes trough Christ Jesus' blood. Those men who look to Christ alone for salvation, but go on in their sin, are not saved! They may look to Christ all they like! Tough! Looking to Christ doesn't save anybody! Neither does it justify anybody. The blood of Jesus alone justifies. The fact that all the elect will, in time, inevitably and invincibly find themselves looking to Jesus' blood for justification, doesn't mean that there is none among reprobate who fool themselves into thinking that Jesus blood has saved them too. These reprobate will look to Jesus blood, thinking that they are justified by it; but they are not. This fact has been missed by many so called, "modern Calvinists". However, Calvinists of old, and some Calvinists today (such as the Gospel Standard churches in the UK), have understood the matter correctly, and realise that a man's looking to Christ's blood for justification, does not cause Christ's blood to justify him (as though the faith of the elect was what caused Christ to die for them!). Therefore, a man can have faith in Christ, and look to his blood for justification, but not be justified! It is Christ's blood that justifies, not faith! Just because the elect are justified by faith alone (see point 2) does not mean everybody who looks to Christ for salvation (i.e. who has faith) are saved! Having faith does not justify you! If you are saved, then it is Christ's blood that has justified you. Sorry for repeating myself so much, but this is quite an important point, and I want it to sink in. The difference between the reprobate and the elect, is that Christ died for one group, and not for the other. The difference isn't that one group have faith and the other doesn't. However, whereas the elect are looking to Christ by the empowering of the Holy Spirit, these reprobate are looking to Christ by their own power. To be clear, such reprobate look to Christ alone (not themselves; their will, or their works) for salvation by their own power; not by the Spirit's power; so, their's is not true Spiritual faith. Furthermore, whereas God works in his people both to will and to do of his good pleasure; these reprobate do not obey the commandments; they are not sanctified in the same way as the elect. That is to say, they lack works. So, because the emblem of a man’s justification comes from both faith and works together, a man without one or the other is not justified. Meaning, a man with only faith and not works has no witness of election and justification.

So, how are the elect to have assurance if the reprobate can also look to Christ for salvation? The answer is not, as you may have mistakenly guessed, by faith and works. Indeed, it is not by faith (as I have used the word thus far) at all! Rather, the elect may be confident that Christ died for them by the Spirit. However, the Spirit only assures God’s people of their salvation while they are walking by faith. That is to say, only when the elect are looking to themselves for nothing, and looking only to the wounds of Christ, will the Spirit ever assure them. You may be wondering, "logically speaking, how can a man possibly look to Christ alone for salvation, and not be assured?" The answer is: Because while said man believes that only God can save him (through Jesus), he nevertheless may be unaware that God has saved him. While he desires to be saved by God alone; he may yet be ignorant of whether God has saved him. While he has sought the Lord, saying, "Lord, I am nothing. Save me!" he may still be unaware as to the Lord’s response. Such a man certainly has his eyes set on Christ alone, and none else, but he is yet doubtful as to whether Christ has his eyes set on him. Perhaps he thinks to himself, "Surely if Christ died for me, God would sanctify me more than he has done! Surely God would have made me better at mortifying my sinful flesh!" So, it takes something more than his faith, more than his looking to Christ, for him to have assurance. It takes the testimony of the Holy Spirit; to open his eyes to the truth that Christ did in fact die for him; that God really does love him.

Now, I hope I'm not going to confuse anybody if I say that this Spirit-given knowledge of God’s love and salvation (i.e. this assurance), can be thought of as yet another aspect of faith more broadly; that is to say, using the term, “faith” in a broader way than it has thus far been used in this post. In this broader sense, assurance is by faith. For, “faith” in this sense encapsulates both looking to Christ for salvation, and finding salvation in Christ. Because there is both a narrow and a broad way of thinking about faith, much confusion has been had over the matter of so called, “duty faith” . The fact is, it is the duty of everybody to love God, and this involves pleasing God, and the only way to please God is to first be cleansed by the blood of Jesus; so it is the duty of everybody to seek God for both cleansing and obedience; but, it is not the duty of everybody to find God. Therefore, it is the duty of everybody to have faith as more narrowly defined above, but not the duty of everybody to have faith as more broadly defined presently.

So, if assurance (conviction that Christ has died for me) is of the Spirit, then how exactly do this work? The answer is as follows:

The Spirit will sweetly work in the souls of the let to assure them that what Christ did at the cross is for them. However, should the elect do those works that are against the testimony of the Spirit within their soulds, they will begin to doubt that Christ ever died for them. But, they can have their consciences sprinkled clean once again by the blood of Jesus, and be restored to a place of assurance by God’s mercy and Spirit, once the Lord has delivered them from whatever sin they chose (of their flesh) to indulge in. What I was trying to say in a previous post was that a regenerate man cannot have true assurance of salvation while he is sinning against the testimony of the Spirit within his heart: "Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God" (1Jn.3:21). At those times when the believer sins against the testimony of the Spirit in his heart (which can be often) he has no true assurance, for he is not acting out of faith (regardless of how it is defined)! That is to say, the, “believer” is committing sin of unbelief!

“If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself” (2Tm.2:13).

This passage tells us two things:
1) That a believer can “believe not”.
2) That God remains faithful to his elect even when they believe not.

Of course, the sinning “believer” may have phony assurance for sure! Yet, hearkening unto this fleshly sham-assurance will make him to sin all the more, for such pseudo-assurance is utterly contrary to the fear of God and to the Holy Spirit. However, when the Lord renews the mind of a backsliden individual (when I say, “backslidden” I mean, one whose mind has failed to mortify his flesh such such that he is taken up in sin), he provides to that individual assurance once again. This may happen several times a day. God’s elect people have assurance for as long as they fix their eyes upon the Lord. At such times it is impossible for them to sin against the promptings of the Spirit, for it is by the Spirit that their eyes are set on the Holy and Anointed One, JESUS. Yet, like Peter who walked on the sea of Galilee, men can divert (even for a moment) their eyes away from the Lord and towards the things of the earth, and at these times, because they are looking away from Jesus, they cannot perceive that God’s will is to bring them to glory. Indeed, at these times, any perception they have, or think they have, is of a counterfeit set in a demonic theatre of filth; one that encourages only merrymaking, relaxation and pleasure, rather than mourning and weeping over sin: "Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted" (Mt. 5:4); "Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh" (Lk. 6:21); "Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep" (Lk. 6:25); "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up" (Jm. 4:8-10).

Do you sin everyday either by acts of commission against God’s perfect righteousness and or by non-acts of omission from God’s perfect righteousness for the things we ought to do that pertain to a perfect righteousness?

To my shame I do. But at those times when a persons sins, he is not walking by faith, but by sight. Whilst he is sinning, he forget what Christ has done and has his affections set on earthly things. Indeed, at those times he suppresses the knowledge of the truth, for that is just what sin is. It is true that in one sense a believer cannot go onto sin, but when scripture speaks in this manner it is referring to the believer's spirit, not his flesh. When I speak of a believer, “sinning” what I mean is, the event of a believer setting aside what God has done in his spirit, and failing to mortify his flesh.

Ask yourself these questions:...

I shall. But please answer the questions that I put in my previous post:

• Does the Holy Spirit assure men of their salvation while they are indulging brazenly in sin? Can a man be assured that he is headed to heaven while he goes into another man’s wife or while he is in the act of killing? While women slaughter their babies (in abortion), can they at the same time know that they are headed to heaven and that nothing can change this fact? Such a notion goes against the clear exhortations of scripture: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1Co.10:12); "giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity ... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" (2Pt.1:5-10)?
• How can God’s elect have assurance whilst their consciences testify against them? Again your doctrine goes against God’s revealed word: "Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God" (1Jn.3:21).

In your interpretation, your assurance comes from yourself

On the contrary, I do not believe that assurance comes from man at all. However, I do believe that God works in man both to will and to do of his good pleasure (though neither willing nor doing bring assurance). So, all the truly good works that a believer does, and all the truly good desires that a believer holds, are not of himself, but are of the God. Moreover, none of these truly good works or truly good desires assure the believer! They merely open the way for the Spirit to assure. Let me use an analogy:

Assurance is like a man as he walks into a room. Let us say that the room has an automatic door. If the door does not open (i.e. if it malfunctions), then the man cannot enter. But I ask you, Can the door by opening make the man enter? Of course not. In like manner, works can do nothing to make the Spirit give assurance. They merely open the way for the Spirit to give assurance. Of course, as I have already made clear, when I speak of good works, I speak of the work of the God within a man to will and do of his own good pleasure. Therefore, assurance is all of grace. For it is the God working in man to do of his good pleasure, which opens the door to the Spiritual gift of assurance, and it is the Spirit who gives that assurance once God has prepared the way for it to enter into the believer's heart.

I take myself for an example: Whenever I look to my works, I not only sin (by puffing myself up with pride), but I also receive no true assurance. Therefore, while I know that though any good works I may have done must have come from God and not myself, nevertheless I cannot look to them for assurance. But when the Holy Ghost diverts my eyes from works done through me, and fixes them upon Jesus and his work at Calvary, I find that I am both humbled and assured in the presence of my Lord.

Remember, I am not saying that works assure! I am saying that when God’s people have works and love for God (that is, obedience), then the Holy Spirit (not by way of works) assures the heart, as it is written, "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments" (1 Jn. 5:2). So, assurance, like salvation, is all of grace.

you are exalting yourself above God

I have not exalted myself above God. However, taking pleasure in those things which are not of God is certainly exalting man over God, for it is neither to obey nor to rely upon the Lord. You hypocrite; you have taken pleasure in cartoon figures and movie characters; you have spent your thoughts on yourself, and failed to redeem them to Christ!

This is not the Gospel!

I was merely saying that the believer's assurance is conditioned upon the work of God within him to will and do of his good pleasure. I was not speaking of the believer's salvation.

Do you ever question what you believe and why you have believed that?

What a very good question; thank you for asking it. Yes is the answer. I like to think of all sorts of alternatives to my position (on the issues discussed here, and on all sorts of matters), and I know from experience that I must be open to changing my mind on matters, since my mind has changed on all sorts of issues already, and continues to change every day. Issues my mind has changed on include: Whether there is a God (I used to believe it was very unlikely there was a God, but I am sure there is one); Whether scripture is wholly true or not (I used to believe it was not; now I believe it is); Whether salvation is by grace or by grace+works (I used to believe it was grace+works; now I believe it is by grace alone; not man’s choice; not man's will); Whether some Arminians are born again or not (I used to believe many were; but now I believe that none are, for all true Arminians deny the name of Jesus; Jehovah saves, and Jehovah saves alone [with, "alone" meaning, by itself and without choice and without works and without anything man can do or think or be); I used to believe that Supralapsarianism was evil (now I do not. However, I do think that there are two kinds of Supralapsarianism, and that one is evil and those who hold to is are likely not born again; and the other is the truth of God). So, I hope you can see that I am a thinking person and that I am constantly seeking to test everything. I believe it is the duty of us all to worship God with all our minds, not just with all our hearts and souls.

Some of the things you challenged me on, I have already responded to above. But let me ask you; will you now be willing to consider that you might be wrong on assurance? Will you seriously and reverently examine your own position? Or will you instead harden your heart? That is to say, will you think thus: "I am right; I know I am right; I just need to search to scripture to find the passages that confirm I am right". If you do this, you are disobeying God; for we are not to search the Scripture to confirm we are right, but to search the scripture to see if the things we have heard are so.

Let me also challenge you on another issue:

I used to believe that there was no Millennium. But now I believe that the Old Testament can hardly be read without encountering it. I do believe with many amillennialists (such as Hendriksen) that there shall be a great tribulation before Christ comes back. However, I do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture (of the dispensationalists). We are told in Paul’s letter to the Romans that God has stripped away the Jews so that the Gentiles might be grafted in. We are also told that the Gentiles will, at a future time, be stripped away and the Jews will be re-grafted in. The Jewish believers did not disappear by rapture last time, and I do not think the Gentile believers will disappear by rapture either. I do, however, hold that when the Lord Jesus comes back, believers shall be caught up in the air. This too is something that many read a millennialists believe in; it is not, however, something that many unread amillennialists believe in.

In a fascinating piece of research, F.F. Bruce, the noted Bible scholar, found that the word used for the second coming ("parousia") and the word "meet" ("apanthesis"), as in, "meet him in the air" (1Thes.4:17) in the Greek, have this vital link: "When a dignitary paid an official visit (parousia) to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens in going out to meet him and escort him back on the final stage of his journey was called the apantesis." So, Christ will return, the saints will be raptured up to be with him in the air, and they shall escort him back down to earth where he will be with them forever. At this great wedding, a supper shall be laid down for them; all the armies of the earth amassed against Christ shall meet their total destruction. Their corpses shall be fed to the birds, who will eat up their rotting bodies. We are told in Scripture the first thousand years of Christ's reign on earth, shall be with "a rod of iron". Jesus said that to his faithful servants, he would give charge over many cities. God’s perfect and holy law will be vindicated. He shall smite those who disobey (as rulers are meant to do), and ordain his saints to "rule" over the heathen; referring not so much to authority in and of itself, but to the exercise of authority over the disobedient; such as, "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity"[1Tm.3:4]; also used in the OT to refer to the punishment upon disobedient Eve, "and he shall rule over thee"[Gn.3:16] meaning, "because you have sinned, you shall be disciplined, and the one with responsibility to do this is your head" for Christ is the head of women by way of men, just as God is the head of men by way of Christ who is in charge of disciplining them. In like manner, the saints shall rule over the nations, as all the Old Testament prophesies have it; Christ shall use the "rod of iron".

We are told that after a long period, Satan shall be released so that he might be finally thrown into hell that the Lord’s word might be totally vindicated; for even after a thousand years of peace, the peoples of the earth shall still reject Christ. But unlike last time (2000 years ago), when, after the Kingdom had been been invaded (by the Romans) and conquered, the people of Israel killed their King: This time, when the armies come to invade they shall be destroyed, and when the peoples try to kill their King, they shall be consumed with fire; and Satan, who failed to kill Jesus last time, shall neither be killed by Jesus this time (Jesus will not even bother with him; he will send an angel shall to cast him into hell). So it is that the end of days shall come, when the earth and heavens shall be made new; and God shall dwell with his people for all eternity in the person of Jesus Christ, in the continuing Kingdom. And the wicked shall be outside the holy city in a fiery chasm in the depth of the earth (the eternal gehenna), and they shall be tormented day and night, and shall plead with the elect for mercy, but no mercy shall enter that place.

Believe it or not, I came to this interpretation primarily on the basis of the New Testament, not the Old, and that, after carefully researching the matter. I read three books on the subject, all from different perspectives. I read Hendriksen's book The Bible on the Life Hereafter, which strongly defends amillennialism and attacks pre-millennialism. I also read a book by a noted dispensationalist and a book by a pre-millennialist. (A recommended book is Seiss's Apocalypse: The best printing is by Kregal, (yr. 2000) paperback, ISBN 978-0825437977). I considered carefully every verse of the New Testament used to defend the notion that the earth shall pass away within minutes or hours of Jesus' return, and I considered those verses which are taken to imply that Satan was sent to the pit at the cross, so as not to deceive anymore those gentiles who would otherwise have believed in God (a frankly ridiculous interpretation which contradicts everything the scripture teaches about salvation by grace alone). I also considered interpretations of Old Testament prophesy which see them as having a non-earthly fulfilment. However, I do not see the kingdom of heaven as in any way staying in heaven. We read, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth". The kingdom of Israel is that kingdom of God. I believe that both Jew and Greek will one day live in that kingdom (as one people), and that God's kingdom shall never cease. It shall pass from this earth to the next earth (an event that, again, amillennialists who have studied the matter, and pre-millennialists' also, actually agree upon). When Jesus was asked, "will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel" he did not respond by telling them that the kingdom was in heaven and that they had not understood a thing he had told them. Rather, he responded by telling them that it was not for them to know the times that the Father had set (Acts1), implying that the kingdom would be restored to Israel at a future time.

At that time the righteous shall reign over the wicked, and all things shall, at last, outwardly be subject to the Lord. The fact is that the devil was thrown down to hell at the cross; for the victory was won at the cross and the elect were saved at the cross. But the outward manifestation of these things was future in both cases. I agree that in the day that Jesus returns, the earth shall pass away (2 Pt. 3:10). But this will not happen until the day is completed, and the thousand years are up! For when amillennialists quote the passage in Peter which says, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" (2Pt.3:8) they try very hard to separate it from the fact that two sentences earlier Peter had said, "beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2Pt.3:8). God's people will rule with him and are even now to sing, "Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer. Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me. He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight" (Ps. 101:5-6). These are not only the words of Jesus, of whom this Psalm supremely speaks, but also of the rule of the saints, who will reign with the Lord! For the same Psalmist, in speaking of the rule of the Lord, sings, "I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O Jehovah, will I sing. I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart. I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me. A froward heart shall depart from me: I wicked person I shall not endure." (Ps. 101:1-2) Thus we see that all scripture is unified in asserting the Kingdom of God come to earth, and the reign of the saints with Christ over the heathen and those who had no time for him.

All those amilenialists who say that the supposed, "millennium" is only mentioned once in scripture, need to examine the Old Testament to see if they can find where it explicitly mentions the second coming of Christ; and perhaps that will put the matter in perspective for them. The millennium is much a part of our Old Testament as is the second coming. It is implied at various points, and I believe that those who reject this doctrine must have misunderstood significant portions of scripture.

Just to repeat, Seiss's Apocalypse is very good on this matter, whether you are a premillennialist or not. (The best printing is by Kregal, (yr. 2000) paperback, ISBN 978-0825437977). This was not one of the 3 original books I read on the issue when I first started looking into it. It was one I discovered since, and it is by far the best.


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Well, thanks once again everybody for responding. Sorry if I couldn't pick you up on everything you said. I only have limited time.

[Highlyfavored]

I have not exalted myself above God. However, taking pleasure in those things which are not of God is certainly exalting man over God, for it is neither to obey nor to rely upon the Lord. You hypocrite; you have taken pleasure in cartoon figures and movie characters; you have spent your thoughts on yourself, and failed to redeem them to Christ!

Sir, you may slander me or call me names. However, speaking poorly of the Batman is really quite a sad thing.

I shall. But please answer the questions that I put in my previous post:
◦ Does the Holy Spirit assure men of their salvation while they are indulging brazenly in sin? Can a man be assured that he is headed to heaven while he goes into another man’s wife or while he is in the act of killing?

Who was that David guy in the OT again?

◦ How can God’s elect have assurance whilst their consciences testify against them? Again your doctrine goes against God’s revealed word: "Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God" (1Jn.3:21).

The consciences of the elect do testify regarding sin. Assurance does not come from the elect's conscience. If committing any sin, or abstaining from any sin, is the foundation for assurance there is no understanding of the grace of God.

The Spirit will sweetly work in the souls of the let to assure them that what Christ did at the cross is for them. However, should the elect do those works that are against the testimony of the Spirit within their soulds, they will begin to doubt that Christ ever died for them. But, they can have their consciences sprinkled clean once again by the blood of Jesus, and be restored to a place of assurance by God’s mercy and Spirit, once the Lord has delivered them from whatever sin they chose (of their flesh) to indulge in.

Ya know if I believed garbage like this my response would be something like "we are soooo screwed!" How's that juggling everything working for you?

I know that if you could witness the liberty I have in Christ, you would be truly appalled at me and call me worse things than a hypocrite.

The funny thing is we have seen guys like you here before, with some twisted and complicated view of scripture that no one else on the planet shares with them, and yet none have been truthful enough to admit that if their view is correct, they would be the only one saved.

The Gospel is so simple, that even the mind of a child can understand it.

[alt731]

Sir, you may slander me or call me names. However, speaking poorly of the Batman is really quite a sad thing.

I would like to publicly apologise for making those comments. Please understand, I do think that wasting time thinking about Batman is a sin, but I didn't mean to accuse you publicly (which is a sin, and I'm sorry for it). I had meant to delete that line from my post (and send it to you as a private e-mail)! Please forgive me. When it came to press the "Submit Reply" button, I must have forgotten I hadn't yet deleted the comment!

I believe that if a man has anything against a professing Christian, he should go to that professor and tell him privately about his sin. I have failed to do that. Again, I apologise.

Assurance does not come from the elect's conscience.

We are in agreement on this point. It comes from the Spirit alone. Please read my analogy again and you will see that I believe the conscience is only the sliding door to the room. It does not make the Spirit come into the room (so to speak) to give assurance.

If committing any sin, or abstaining from any sin, is the foundation for assurance

Its not quite correct to call abstinence from sin the, “foundation” of assurance, according to my view. Rather, it is the gateway through which assurance comes, but assurance itself comes by the Spirit. This gateway is faith. People do not sin at the same time as looking by God-given faith to the wounds of Jesus for justification. Thus, when men live by faith, that is to say, when men walk with their eyes fixed on Jesus, they do not sin. Whatsoever is not of faith, is sin. Whatsoever is of faith, is not sin. I'm not asserting some kind of Wesleyan perfectionism here. A man’s flesh remains sinful regardless of how much faith he has. But that which is of God-given faith, is not sin. Thus, when men walk by faith and not by sight, they mortify the flesh, keeping it in submission. When they do not mortify the flesh, and indulge in sin, they cease to walk by faith. When you sin, say, in lust, are you simultaneously looking to the blood of Jesus? Of course not. Therefore, you are not walking by faith, but by sight (having your affections set on things below, not on things above). What I am saying, is that when a man has his eyes fixed on Jesus, he is not sinning (though his flesh remains sinful, it is subjugated), and therefore he may have a clear conscience, for at this time, his conscience knows intimately the blood of the lamb. It is at this time that the Spirit (not the faith itself) gives assurance (i.e. knowledge of one's own election: and that, “Jesus died for me”).

Where I appreciate it gets a bit complicated, is when I say that this knowledge (this assurance) can actually be thought of as an aspect of faith, when the word “faith” is used more broadly. In the broader sense, “faith” means both looking to Jesus for salvation and receiving from the Lord the knowledge of one's own salvation.

If committing any sin, or abstaining from any sin, is the foundation for assurance there is no understanding of the grace of God

On the contrary, whenever the Lord works in his people to set their eyes upon the King, the door is opened to the Spiritual assurance I have spoken of. At these times, the elect may be 100% sure of their own salvation. But this surety is not coming from themselves! It is coming from the Spirit. Therefore, when they sin again the Spirit, their Spiritual assurance is withdrawn. It is no good for them to then say (while sinning), “Ah, but the Lord assured me before that I was a true child of God, and if that assurance was real then I must be a true child of God” for this statement includes the vital, “if”: “if that assurance was real”. How is a man going to know whether the assurance was real if he is no longer receiving it? Indeed, if a man knows he is sinning, it is much more logical for him assume that the assurance he previously had was fake, for he is even now spitting on the Spirit of grace! If he is of the elect (which he must be, if his previous assurance was real) then he must flee once again to the saviour, not knowing whether he is a true Christian, and pleading with the Lord to sprinkle his conscience clean, that he might truly know the blood of the lamb, and the mercy of God, and the assurance of his Spirit. They will say, “Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me” and pray, “Forsake me not, O Jehovah: O my God, be not far from me!” When the Lord works in them to say these things, he is opening up the door for himself to give assurance by his Spirit.

I know that if you could witness the liberty I have in Christ, you would be truly appalled at me and call me worse things than a hypocrite.

I am not appalled when I see a believer with full assurance. Indeed, I am greatly encouraged by it! If by “liberty” you meant assurance, as in, “if you could see the assurance a believer has, then you would be appalled by it” then you are greatly mistaken. I want all the Lord’s people to have true Spiritual assurance of their salvation all the time! Unfortunately it is not so.

If, however, by “liberty” you meant, 'assurance while sinning', as in, for example, “I'm really lovin this pornography right now, and I'm a child of freaking G-o-d!!!” then yes, I am appalled. And no, you are not a child of God. You are a child of the devil, and all your, “assurance” is of your flesh. The Lord laughs at you, for he knows your day is coming.

The funny thing is we have seen guys like you here before, with some twisted and complicated view of scripture

Its just new to you, which is why it seems complicated. Just like everything, things seem complicated at first, but when they are learnt, they seem much easier.

that no one else on the planet shares with them

On the contrary, I was in a Gospel Standard church just this morning, where the pastor was preaching almost exactly what I have been saying to you. I was in different Gospel Standard church last week, where the message was, “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall” and again, it was almost identical to the message I have given you. This is a very common view. According to J.I. Packer, who is an authority on the Puritans, almost all the early puritans had this very view. I believe that even the Westboro Baptist Church hold this view, which means it must be common, for they come from a different country to me.

they would be the only one saved.

The elect shall have godly sorrow. They shall weep and wail and mourn over their sins, knowing their own wickedness. While they mourn they shall look to the Lord for salvation.

However, because men continue to sin all their lives, there is much mourning in the life of a believer. Yet they may be encouraged, for they read, “They that sow in tears shall reap in joy” (Psalm 126:5) Also, there is also much joy and much peace in the life of a believer.

The Gospel is so simple, that even the mind of a child can understand it.

Though we are discussing assurance of salvation, not salvation itself (won in the death—pardon and forgiveness—and resurrection—new life—of Jesus), nevertheless, I will say that the Gospel is like a beautifully crafted object. When seen from afar off, it can look very simple, with only a few distinct parts, but throughout the believer's life, he comes to understand more and more of its aspects and beauties, such that the richness of it can is ever being revealed to him. In a broad sense, the Gospel (i.e. good message of God) is the whole of scripture, for the whole of scripture testifies in some way to the Lord Jesus. Of course, nobody can ever know the whole of scripture perfectly. Nevertheless, to believe the Gospel, one needs to be close enough to it (intellectually and emotionally) to have a basic understanding of what it is; its principal elements and how they fit together. I believe that the Lord can, if he so wills, open up the understanding even of a child, to grasp his message. Who can say to him, “what doest thou?” He may do whatsoever he wills in all the armies of heaven, and in all the inhabitants of the earth, for he is God, and his glory alone is his object. Amen.

[trav]

A regenerate mind grasps and rests in Christ's work on behalf of them because the understanding and faith is God given. The unregenerate mind rests in the assurance they conjure up by living a godly life (at least they think they are). Real gospel assurance is a gift of the Spirit of God, true faith and reliance in the work of Jesus never waivers because the faith that God gives is a living faith, never a dead one like "alt731" believes in. Besides, according to "alt731's" profile, none of us are recognized by God as Christians; He and the other lovers of James (their brother) are the true believers.

[Saint Nicholas]

alt731=Blue
Nicholas=Black


“I believe that a regenerate man can have true assurance of salvation, and that this assurance (not salvation itself, but the assurance of it) can be lost it through sinning.”


Disagree! If a person is trusting in Christ’s perfect righteousness IMPUTED to him, then there will never be a possibility of losing assurance.

It is the Papists and yourself who look to subjective sanctification, and the quality of your performance to derive your assurance from. Since stating that you sin everyday, then according to your understanding, you yourself can never have assurance.



“However, my position (like that of Calvin, and all the early Puritans such as William Perkins, not that these people matter) is this: A man for whom Christ died (that is, a man who is saved) can come to know that Christ died for him (that is, he can come to know for sure that that he is saved before he gets to heaven). However, the same man can go onto doubt that Christ died for him; or to forget that Christ died for him; or to in some way to loose a grip on the fact that Christ died for him.”

“Since assurance, in essence, is simply the Spiritual conviction that 'Christ died for me and therefore I am saved' it is therefore possible for a man who once had this conviction to go onto doubt it or forget it at times. But this does not mean it is gone for good!”

Disagree! Your above statement is sheer insanity, and doublespeak. Here is what you just said:


1) A saved man knows for sure that Christ died for him.
2) A saved man doubts that Christ died for him.
3) A saved man forgets that Christ died for him.
4) A saved man loses grip on the fact that Christ died for him.

In my opinion you have no clue to what the gift of Faith and Spiritual conviction are all about.

Let me share another analogy.

1) A married man knows for sure that he has a wife.
2) A married man doubts he has a wife.
3) A married man forgets he has a wife.
4) A married man loses grip on the fact that he has a wife.


Can you see how foolish your line of reasoning is.

Unless of course this married man was hit on the head with a brick and acquired amnesia.
Amnesia can be a possibility for him to doubt, forget, or lose grip on what he had known for sure before.

If you are a married man John, try this.


1.Ask the woman you live with if she is your wife.
2.Tell her that you don't think she is your wife.
3.Tell her you are not married to her and you do not have a wife.
4.Also tell her you know for sure that she is your wife.


If you do this, she will think your insane. And I would agree. Your logic is to be faulted.


Knowing and being married to Christ is equally as real as knowing and being married to my wife, for the regenerate elect have the testimony of the Holy Spirit. What can be more real than that?


A more valid explanation is this. You are confused by the paradoxal theology you have been exposed to.



Nicholas

[trav]

How do you spell "cognitive dissonance"? Oh, I just did!

[Saint Nicholas]

Alt731=blue
Nicholas=black
　
"Now, believing, "Christ died for me" (i.e. assurance) does not make you saved! It does not justify you. God’s people are justified by the blood of Christ alone; not by faith and not by works. When Jesus said, "it is finished" he meant it."

We agree here if you are referring to a forensic Imputed Righteousness. Nothing we do Justifies us. It is what Christ has done alone.

Of course, in another sense, men are justified by faith apart from works ;
　
We agree only if this Justification is not the ground or basis for the verdict of Justification. But rather a Forensic, Alien Justification that is made known and declared to us by faith alone.
　
and in yet another sense, men are justified by both faith and works.

Disagree ! Disagree! Disagree! Here is were you, J.I. Packer, and most of the reformed have departed from the faith and have kissed the Pope of Rome. The good works of a believer are never a component of Justification. The works that Christ does in us via the Holy Spirit are the result of Justification. They belong to the category of Sanctification, not Justification.


Romans 4:3-6

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

God Justifies the ungodly by faith alone.

Nicholas

[Robert R. Higby]

It is just incredible to me that men perceive the scriptures as teaching a 'revolving door' on the matter of assurance--confident=not sinning and loss of all confidence=committing sin. In spite of biblical evidence, that does not play out even in the human realm. Marriage, the greatest token of Christ's relationship with his body, being the primary example. A marriage relationship cannot be severed by an act of gross sin (even adultery). The possibility of divorce in marriage does not nullify this principle--God divorcing Judaism is Old Covenant, not the new and everlasting covenant of Grace.

[rlhuckle]

I think that we ought not to overlook Romans 8:28 in this matter. If one is truly a regenerate elect, God is working ALL THINGS (which would include our sins) FOR THE GOOD of His elect children.

Sin in the life of an elect child is ostensibly for a GOOD purpose (though it is ever grievous): to grow us in the knowledge of the GRACE of our Lord and Savior as we are chastised! It is meant to be a reminder of the GOSPEL!

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.