Assurance of Salvation

[alt731]

Alt731=blue
Nicholas=black
　
"Now, believing, "Christ died for me" (i.e. assurance) does not make you saved! It does not justify you. God’s people are justified by the blood of Christ alone; not by faith and not by works. When Jesus said, "it is finished" he meant it."

We agree here if you are referring to a forensic Imputed Righteousness. Nothing we do Justifies us. It is what Christ has done alone.

"forensic imputed righteousness"? I'm sorry to say I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you explain it to me? As for my position, it is simply this: Christ alone justifies his people. Not faith, not works. God’s people are justified by his blood alone: "we have now been justified by his blood". That is to say, God’s people are not justified from eternity past when God made the decision to justify them (only in this sense is Christ slain from the foundation of the world). They are not justified from the moment they believed. They are justified by - his - blood.

Of course, in another sense, men are justified by faith apart from works ;
　
We agree only if this Justification is not the ground or basis for the verdict of Justification. But rather a Forensic, Alien Justification that is made known and declared to us by faith alone.

"a Forensic, Alien Justification"? I was lost before...I'm still lost.

I do of course believe that belief in Jesus is not the ground for why Jesus shed his blood. He didn't die for the righteous, but for sinners who had rejected him and shown their hatred for him in that all their deeds were evil.

God's people are justified by faith only in this respect: They look to Christ's blood for their justification with the eyes of faith. Thats it! That's all it means to be justified by faith!

and in yet another sense, men are justified by both faith and works.

Disagree ! Disagree! Disagree! Here is were you, J.I. Packer, and most of the reformed have departed from the faith and have kissed the Pope of Rome. The good works of a believer are never a component of Justification. The works that Christ does in us via the Holy Spirit are the result of Justification. They belong to the category of Sanctification, not Justification.

What's J.I. Packer got to do with anything? I don't think he's a true Christian either. He doesn't believe properly in the sovereignty of God: Packer thinks that it is a vile perversion of Christianity to say that God made the wicked for their own doom, and that God did so out of love for his people; to give his people the victory over the wicked; to bring glory to himself, glory for which the righteous would love him. Packer thinks that God’s people shouldn't praise him when he smites the wicked, such as on 9/11, when God tapped the hand of one of the most wicked nations on earth by killing all those people. America is a great whore who spreads her pornography, effeminacy, and black-hearted murder of babies to every nation on earth. She is ten-thousand times more wicked than Sodom ever was, and God hates her with all he's got. How on earth can anybody reckon it was not a wonderful sign from God that America's doom is drawing near when those twin towers, symbols of all the filthy money and arrogant pride of this great whore, were brought to the ground by those insects; those so called, "terrorists"? "Behold, the Lord, Jehovah of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled"—God is America's terrorist.

Praise the Lord: America, the great whore, is doomed! So is J.I. Packer and all who hate the Lord’s victory over sin: That is, all who hate the Lord for smiting down sin wherever it is; for smiting Jesus for the sins of his people; for smiting the wicked for the sins of those who are not his people; for smiting the devil and all his messengers (that is, all who carry the message of Satan [to disobey God] in their hearts and minds. i.e. the message to hate God).

I personally praise God for all his wonderful works; for sending AIDS upon Africa (perhaps the most sexually perverted place on earth, where, in a recent study, it was found that 1 in 4 [you read it right; 1 in 4!] men in South Africa admitted to raping a women, and where women have for centuries been mutilated in their bodies, and have been taught not to wear any clothes and to dance provocatively as the men lear at them [a bit like america's pop stars today]; praise God for AIDS!); praise God for killing off the parents of this generation in the second world war, as punishment no doubt for the sins of the first world war, which was fought over practically nothing (that is to say, they killed 40 million people over a foolish dispute between the reigning monarchies of Europe. I have no doubt it was for this reason that God turned Europe into a killing field, and the devil worked his evil ways upon the world. See this video for an absolutely fascinating account of Hitler's links to the occult and his love of filth: http://www.youtube.com/videolineup#p/c/996BC32FBC8504DD). That generation were the most violent generation in history (praise God; they're in hell now!) (I speak of the most violent generation before ours of course, with all our cutting up of babies! millions upon millions of dead babes! you could probably fill a football stadium with all the bodies of the dead foetuses who have been killed). In the 19th century, the European nations went all about the world trying to get to themselves great empires, and grew themselves huge armies and navies (very much like America's today) against God’s explicit commandment to every ruler: "he shall not multiply horses to himself". No wonder the Lord punished Europe with the first world war, and after they refused to repent, punished them with another! Europe and America have been chock-a-block with murderers for the last two hundred years, since the so called "enlightenment"! (which also produced the French revolution by the way, the most bloody revolution in history). America thinks she's enlightened! American so called reformed "Christians" thinks God is on your side! How about the plain facts of scripture for some enlightenment! "THOU SHALT NOT KILL!" What's not to understand about that? Yet every so called "republican" (BTW God hates republics; they do not represent his rule at all. The only system of government God has ever ordained is monarchy; kingdom) in America (pretty much) thought the war in Iraq was a good idea! All those democrats (God hates democracy too! Its totally unbiblical, and look at what its led too!) who love their baby-killing! America is inevitably and invincibly doomed! Hallelujah! Are you so blind? Can't you see the obvious? These are unmistakable signs of the times. You should all be praising God, for he is very shortly going to be destroying that filthy nation whose conversation should be vexing your souls!

But back to Packer. This man shakes hands with the Pope! Anybody who thinks he's a true Christian need their heads examining. It is written, "come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord; touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you". This is solid New Testament truth; I hope you believe it.

Anyway, onto to the subject at hand: God's people are clearly justified by works. Even if James was nowhere to be found in God's word, I would still believe in justification by works, since the fact is so obvious from the rest of scripture. If God’s people are not justified by works, then what does it mean when it says, "the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity"? This is the seal! God’s people are sealed! What is the seal? That the Lord knows those that are his, and, that everyone who names the name of the Lord departs from iniquity. From what I have read on this forum, it sounds like some lascivious creeps have tricked you all into thinking God does not sanctify those whom he loves! "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." What kind of nonsense have you been listening to? God’s people have a seal upon them of their justification; an invisible seal set upon them by God himself: Let those who name the name of the Lord depart from iniquity. Therefore they are justified by works; that is, by their departure from iniquity. They are justified in this sense: Previously they had no seal, but now they are sealed! This, by the way, is exactly the sense in which James uses the term 'justification' and you will discover this with even a little study (if the Lord opens your eyes).

Let us say a man was invited to a palace by the king. When he got there he showed the palace guard his letter of invitation, which had the seal of the king upon it. The man entered the palace. Now, we may ask, how did the man enter? Did he enter by the seal? In one sense, no, of course not. A seal isn't permission. A seal is just a bit of wax. No man can enter merely by a seal. When men are in prison do they try to escape by rubbing a bit of wax into the prison door? Do they think that a bit of wax can save them? No, of course not. In the same sense men know that they are not justified by works at all. Yet in another sense the man who entered the palace after showing the guard the king's seal, may say, "were it not for this seal, I would never have got in!" The purpose of this little story isn't to imply that God’s people may ever say, "were it not for my works, I would never get into heaven". Of course, anybody who even thinks such a thing is clearly unregenerate. Rather, my purpose in telling you this story is to show you that in this context words can have different senses. In one sense a man who enters a palace by the permission of the king may say, "I enter solely by the king's permission". In another sense, the same man may say, "I enter by this seal, which is a symbol of the king's permission". So it is that in this life, when heaven looks down upon earth to see who is justified, it sees the seal upon God’s people; their departure from iniquity. But as I said before, God’s people themselves do not dwell on their good works (that is, the works God has done through them); they do not examine their good works; they are not to think at all about their good works at all. Yet they are sealed! They bear a sign of their justification. How then can anybody rightly claim that men are not justified by works in this sense?

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

God Justifies the ungodly by faith alone.

These verses are speaking of looking to Christ and his blood for justification; not being given the seal of justification by God; departure from iniquity.

Of course men are justified by faith alone. But in another sense they are not justified by faith at all! They are justified by his grace alone. It is written that Jesus came by water and by blood. The Catholics sometimes say this refers to Mary in child birth, but the Protestants say, "it means they cross" and the Catholics respond, "how is it then that the came by water and by blood?" You see, they have not understood what the words, "came by" mean! It is also written that John 'came by' baptism! How is it that you cannot understand that God’s people are justified by works? Why does 'justified by' to you never have its obvious legitimate sense of 'sealed by'?

It is just incredible to me that men perceive the scriptures as teaching a 'revolving door' on the matter of assurance--confident=not sinning and loss of all confidence=committing sin."

Well, at least you've understood the concept. When God’s elect walk by sight and not by faith; when they take their eyes off Christ (i.e. when they sin) they can have no true assurance. The Spirit won't give it. It is be a shameful for people to feel assured when they are sinning. I have no doubt, you may still find yourself assured at these times (when your sinning against your conscience and against the testimony of the Spirit within your soul), but this assurance isn't coming from the Spirit. This assurance is coming out of your [I]lack[I/] of fear; I speak of the fear of God.

In spite of biblical evidence

In spite of the evidence? I think I quoted more scriptures to people than anybody quoted to me. Just read the Psalms when David prays, "renew a right spirit within me" or read the exhortation to ask for forgiveness (and that, after it has been granted to God’s people at the cross!). Why are God's people still to ask for forgiveness for their sins? The answer is clear: So that they may know forgiveness! So that they may have forgiveness not just in truth, but also in spirit. Men are to worship God in spirit and in truth.

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments"

"Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God"

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall"

"giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity ... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall"

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself"
I have a question for you, at those times when God’s people "believe not" (that is, when they sin), what assurance do they have?

that does not play out even in the human realm. Marriage, the greatest token of Christ's relationship with his body, being the primary example. A marriage relationship cannot be severed by an act of gross sin (even adultery). The possibility of divorce in marriage does not nullify this principle--God divorcing Judaism is Old Covenant, not the new and everlasting covenant of Grace.

God has never divorced his people the Jews, and if you think he has they you clearly have no real concept of the Christian God. He is the faithful one! Ever faithful! Don't you know that the love of God endureth forever?

God has promised to graft his Jewish people back in! How then has he divorced them? Read Romans again please: "how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Secondly, who said anything about people loosing salvation? that is, a marriage relationship being severed? Not me! By the way, Christ is not yet married to the Church. That doesn't happen until he comes back and we have the wedding supper of the lamb. The church is the bride of Christ, not the wife. Israel the nation was not a picture of the church as it currently stands, but of the eternal scene when God will be married to his people (both Jew and Gentile, for God has only one people; He shall have only one wife. Polygamy is not on the agenda).

Here is what you just said:


1) A saved man knows for sure that Christ died for him.
2) A saved man doubts that Christ died for him.
3) A saved man forgets that Christ died for him.
4) A saved man loses grip on the fact that Christ died for him.

In my opinion you have no clue to what the gift of Faith and Spiritual conviction are all about.

So I think that people can forget things. Right. And whats so insane about that?

As for me having no grip on what is spiritual. Remember, I'm the one who is saying that true knowledge of salvation (i.e. true assurance) must come from the Spirit. I'm the one who is saying its not good enough to have a mere intellectual knowledge of salvation, which is fleshly and isn't true knowledge at all. I'm the one who's saying God’s people need a Spiritual knowledge coming direct from the Spirit, and that its not good enough to rely on their own memories, which are fallible and can't be trusted. You aren't saying these things. So who's the one with no clue about Spiritual conviction?

Let me share another analogy.

1) A married man knows for sure that he has a wife.
2) A married man doubts he has a wife.
3) A married man forgets he has a wife.
4) A married man loses grip on the fact that he has a wife.


Can you see how foolish your line of reasoning is.

Here you go again, making no distinction between what is Spiritual (assurance) and what is of the flesh (fake assurance). To you assurance has nothing to do with a Spiritual testimony to the soul. Its merely to do with intellectual knowledge. So then, for you assurance works just like the memory of say, one's wife. So, for you it boils down to being all of man; all of men's own understanding.

If you are a married man John, try this.

1.Ask the woman you live with if she is your wife.
2.Tell her that you don't think she is your wife.
3.Tell her you are not married to her and you do not have a wife.
4.Also tell her you know for sure that she is your wife.

If you do this, she will think your insane. And I would agree. Your logic is to be faulted.

In this example, a man is believing that he has no wife, and at the same time he is believing that he has a wife. Yes, this is flawed logic, but its not what I said. I don't think anybody can both have, and lack, true assurance at the same time. I think that God’s people can have assurance, and then at a later date loose that assurance, and then at a later date still, receive it again by the testimony of the Spirit. This is quite a simple concept to grasp I think.

The funny thing is we have seen guys like you here before, with some twisted and complicated view of scripture that no one else on the planet shares with them, and yet none have been truthful enough to admit that if their view is correct, they would be the only one saved.

Firstly, as I understand it Marc Carpenter once came to this forum. He's pretty honest about the fact he thinks almost nobody is a true Christian, don't you think? (BTW, for anyone reading this who doesn't know already, I just want to say that I'm not part of Marc Carpenter's group)

Anyway, clearly you haven't read much, or been out much, as they say. For plenty of people hold the same view as me, and plenty of people have done so in history. Its the guys on this network who have the strange opinions, not me. You guys don't even accept James, when it is so clearly breathed out by God! You have taken away from scripture, and God has taken your names out of his book of life. I'm sorry that you're not true Christians. I wish you were. But clearly that's not in God’s plan at the moment; so I rejoice, for he is good.

I haven't got a complicated opinion. 'Revolving door' assurance it has been called, is quite easy to grasp. I don't believe in revolving door salvation, like the Armininians do. As for my interpretation of James, its totally orthodox: You can find it in all good churches (and many bad ones!) So, what exactly is complicated about my beliefs? The fact I believe that words, such as, "faith" or, "justification" can have different senses? Is that what's so complicated? Its really not. I simply believe that in one sense, faith has to do with seeking Jesus; with praying, "Lord! I cannot save myself! All my efforts have been a failure! I cannot have faith in you! I cannot believe in your name! Nothing I do is good! Lord, I cannot do it. Please, you do it!" We might say that this is a prayer of faith, for one who prays this is seeking the Lord, yearning for righteousness, looking to the cross, saying, "Please Lord, may I be justified by the blood of the lamb? Please! May it be applied to me?". So, 'faith' here refers to the seeking; the asking. But then 'faith' as a word can also be used to refer to the finding. Calvin defined faith as a man’s knowledge of God’s good favour towards him. In this sense faith encapsulates assurance; In this sense faith is what men have once they have sought by faith. So, as I see it faith has two parts; the seeking and the finding. Without recognising this, I don't think people will understand the matter of "duty faith". Its the duty of everybody to seek, but not the duty of everybody to find. But regardless, faith in all these respects does not justify. God’s people are justified by Christ's blood. What's complicated about anything I have said?

Someone on this forum spoke about, "a Forensic, Alien Justification" and you say I'm being complicated?

By the way, I didn't say that people had to have my 'revolving door' opinion of assurance to be saved. I just think that if you're looking to your works thinking, "wow, what a good person God has made me to be" then you're clearly deep in the blackness of sin; dead in trespasses; full of pride: "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican…I tell you…for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." I also think that if God’s people reckon they have assurance at those times when the Holy Spirit isn't giving them assurance (for assurance is, in my view, to do with a direct link to the Spirit in which God’s people have Spiritual knowledge that Jesus died for them) then they're not really believing that Christ has died for them at all, for their belief is a mere intellectual fudge; its not the true belief (of assurance) in any way! True assurance comes like electricity; when the Spirit is leading his people, they look to Jesus for justification and the power is on; they know truly that they are saved. When they're looking away from Jesus, and indulging in their sins, the power is off and any assurance they have is a farse (i.e. from the flesh, not the Spirit).

You have spoken about liberty in Christ. I believe there is great liberty in Christ! But I don't think there is any liberty in sin whatsoever. The liberty that God’s people have is liberty from sin, not liberty to sin. Jesus didn't come to allow people to sin. He came to deliver people from sin. If you don't see it this way, then I'm sorry for you, for you know nothing of Christ.

May God bless you all.

[trav]

John,
Your post is very long so I can only respond to very little with what time I have. When we speak of "forensic imputed righteousness" all you have to do is crack open a dictionary, don't play dumb. Forensic= legal declaration; imputed=to attribute to, to ascribe (something outside of the person, not internal); righteousness= the righteousness of Christ. Let's put this together: forensic imputed righteousness= a legal declaration of His people as righteous (as righteous as Christ since it is His righteousness) which is accounted (imputed) to them solely because of Christ. Since it is Christ's righteousness by which His people are declared righteous it is then an "alien" righteousness, meaning it from someone else not the sinner(elect) it is from Jesus; it comes from a source "outside" the elect, it is "alien"; alien= belonging to another.

[Brandan Kraft]

Here you go again, making no distinction between what is Spiritual (assurance) and what is of the flesh (fake assurance). To you assurance has nothing to do with a Spiritual testimony to the soul. Its merely to do with intellectual knowledge. So then, for you assurance works just like the memory of say, one's wife. So, for you it boils down to being all of man; all of men's own understanding.

This sounds like the old "head / heart" dichotomy debate.... Faith is assurance - and it is intellectual. The "Spiritual testimony to the soul" IS intellectual. You have set up the same false dichotomy of the "head / heart" debate once again with different terminology - that is all.

[Saint Nicholas]

What's J.I. Packer got to do with anything? I don't think he's a true Christian either.

I agree! In my opinion Packer is not a true believer either. The reason I introduced Packer was on the basis of his view on Justification. That's all I am really concerned about in the context of this thread. Packer like you, place good works as a ground for Justification.

But back to Packer. This man shakes hands with the Pope! Anybody who thinks he's a true Christian need their heads examining. It is written, "come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord; touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you". This is solid New Testament truth; I hope you believe it.

All men who think that good works have a ground in Justification have shaken hands with the Pope.

Anyway, onto to the subject at hand: God's people are clearly justified by works. Even if James was nowhere to be found in God's word, I would still believe in justification by works, since the fact is so obvious from the rest of scripture.

Here is where yourself, the Pope, and J.I. Packer agree. I admire your hatred for sin and wicked governments, however believing that a person can be Justified by works (in any sense) is a greater sin than the sins of the U.S., World War I, World War II, The French Revolution, Nazi Germany, etc. etc.

If God’s people are not justified by works, then what does it mean when it says, "the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity"? This is the seal! God’s people are sealed! What is the seal? That the Lord knows those that are his, and, that everyone who names the name of the Lord departs from iniquity. From what I have read on this forum, it sounds like some lascivious creeps have tricked you all into thinking God does not sanctify those whom he loves! "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Here is where you are confused about our beliefs. We have not fallen prey to the " lascivious creeps ". Good works are the result and consequences of Justification. Not the cause, and or a condition to maintain Justification.

It seems to me from all your writings so far, that you insist on inherent sinless perfection as a ground for Justification. But remember one thing. "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." So although we do retain sin in our flesh ie. our old man/nature, we are seen as perfectly spotless before the Lord. We understand this by Faith Alone!

Nicholas

[Saint Nicholas]

Let us say a man was invited to a palace by the king. When he got there he showed the palace guard his letter of invitation, which had the seal of the king upon it. The man entered the palace. Now, we may ask, how did the man enter? Did he enter by the seal? In one sense, no, of course not. A seal isn't permission. A seal is just a bit of wax. No man can enter merely by a seal. When men are in prison do they try to escape by rubbing a bit of wax into the prison door? Do they think that a bit of wax can save them? No, of course not. In the same sense men know that they are not justified by works at all. Yet in another sense the man who entered the palace after showing the guard the king's seal, may say, "were it not for this seal, I would never have got in!" The purpose of this little story isn't to imply that God’s people may ever say, "were it not for my works, I would never get into heaven". Of course, anybody who even thinks such a thing is clearly unregenerate. Rather, my purpose in telling you this story is to show you that in this context words can have different senses. In one sense a man who enters a palace by the permission of the king may say, "I enter solely by the king's permission". In another sense, the same man may say, "I enter by this seal, which is a symbol of the king's permission". So it is that in this life, when heaven looks down upon earth to see who is justified, it sees the seal upon God’s people; their departure from iniquity. But as I said before, God’s people themselves do not dwell on their good works (that is, the works God has done through them); they do not examine their good works; they are not to think at all about their good works at all. Yet they are sealed! They bear a sign of their justification. How then can anybody rightly claim that men are not justified by works in this sense?

This type of analogy is consistent with all those who place works as a necessary proof or ground of Justification. Your line of reasoning would be valid only if you see good works as a definite result of Justification. Or rather limit good works to the moral rehabilitation of the saved justified sinner. But you insist on placing good works in the category of Justification. What you and most others have done (including the Pope), have synthesized Justification and Sanctification. Here are your own words " How then can anybody rightly claim that men are not justified by works in this sense?"

There is absolutely NO SENSE in which good works have any part of Justification.

This is why you do not understand theological terms such as Forensic, Alien Righteousness, Imputed. In fact, it seems that you hate these terms and what they stand for.

Well, at least you've understood the concept. When God’s elect walk by sight and not by faith; when they take their eyes off Christ (i.e. when they sin) they can have no true assurance. The Spirit won't give it. It is be a shameful for people to feel assured when they are sinning. I have no doubt, you may still find yourself assured at these times (when your sinning against your conscience and against the testimony of the Spirit within your soul), but this assurance isn't coming from the Spirit. This assurance is coming out of your [I]lack[I/] of fear; I speak of the fear of God.

You said that when people sin (i.e.take their eyes of Christ) they can have no true assurance. But here is your major problem,(not mine) and a big problem at that! YOU and I SIN EVERYDAY AND AT EVERY MOMENT.

Now please don't try to wiggle out of this. "If we say we have no sin, we lie". So please explain to me how you can ever have assurance of salvation when according to you, you cannot while sinning??

Justification and Assurance can only come from Faith Alone, in Christ's Imputed Righteousness Alone. Good works and sin play no part in assurance and Justification.

Sin was already dealt at the Cross. Christ took my ALL my sins past, present, and future, and washed them as white as snow. That's why I have FULL ASSURANCE even when I sin.

Now I know you probably hate that last statement of mine. But so does the Pope and all who think their good works proves something and give them assurance.

And one more thing. Unless all your good works are as equally as righteous as Christ's perfect, Holy, and sinless good works, then please cease discussing any form or sense of a Justification by or from good works.

All our works are filthy rags in God's sight!!!

Nicholas

[trav]

John, If I might make a suggestion, you would find a group of people that would love your beliefs over at the "Catholic Answers" forum. They are lovers of the teachings of Augustine and the Catholic Catechism just like yourself. Having read your beliefs it sounds like you're ready to "cross the Tiber" not long from now.

[Saint Nicholas]

John, If I might make a suggestion, you would find a group of people that would love your beliefs over at the "Catholic Answers" forum. They are lovers of the teachings of Augustine and the Catholic Catechism just like yourself. Having read your beliefs it sounds like you're ready to "cross the Tiber" not long from now.

Trav, you have hit the nail right on the head!

In reading Alt731's understanding of faith, good works, and assurance, in relation to Justification, he is more in harmony with the Papacy and their apostate whore non-catholic, evangelical, and reformed Protestant daughters.

His attempts to reconcile Paul and James are futile and strained.

Below is a Roman Catholic link on this issue. You can read how much alt731 and the writer in the link present their arguments in similar fashion. Debating with alt731 is similar to debating a Roman Catholic on this issue.

But I'm not surprised. Most non-Catholic seminaries are teaching a hybrid and deadly form of Justification that will satisfy the Papacy for the moment. A Justification that is clinical and analytical.



http://catholicism.org/epistle-of-straw.html



Nicholas

[trav]

Nick, thanks for the link, but I have to admit it made me want to vomit; much like John's (alt731) beliefs. I think that Jimmy Akin and Scott Hahn would probably welcome John with open arms and would probably paddle his boat across the Tiber river for him.

[Saint Nicholas]

By the way, I didn't say that people had to have my 'revolving door' opinion of assurance to be saved. I just think that if you're looking to your works thinking, "wow, what a good person God has made me to be" then you're clearly deep in the blackness of sin; dead in trespasses; full of pride: "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican…I tell you…for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Don't worry John. We here at p-net do not look to our good works in thinking that we somehow better than others. Or even for Justification before God and men.

I also think that if God’s people reckon they have assurance at those times when the Holy Spirit isn't giving them assurance (for assurance is, in my view, to do with a direct link to the Spirit in which God’s people have Spiritual knowledge that Jesus died for them)

If the Holy Spirit has not given assurance or rather testified to our spirit that we are children of God, then that individual has not yet been regenerated (born from above).

then they're not really believing that Christ has died for them at all, for their belief is a mere intellectual fudge; its not the true belief (of assurance) in any way!

I agree! It's not Faith at all. Nor even a so-called dead faith. It's simply non-faith.

True assurance comes like electricity; when the Spirit is leading his people, they look to Jesus for justification and the power is on; they know truly that they are saved. When they're looking away from Jesus, and indulging in their sins, the power is off and any assurance they have is a farse (i.e. from the flesh, not the Spirit).

It's true that assurance only comes by looking to Jesus for our Justification. And we do know we are saved. But on the contrary, if individuals are not looking (or looking away from Jesus, then they are not saved (regenerated at all) to begin with. Being born of God's Spirit is the result of Justification, not it's cause. So as far as your analogy is concerned, the "power that is turned off" was never turned on in the first place.

Remember! God's Spirit is an effectual "power" in our lives. A "power" no man can turn off!. Unless you believe man's power is greater than God's power in keeping those that are His.

You have spoken about liberty in Christ. I believe there is great liberty in Christ! But I don't think there is any liberty in sin whatsoever. The liberty that God’s people have is liberty from sin, not liberty to sin. Jesus didn't come to allow people to sin. He came to deliver people from sin.

Agreed! That's what Sanctification is about. But you somehow interweave Justification into the equation.

If you don't see it this way, then I'm sorry for you, for you know nothing of Christ.

We do see it that way. So don't feel sorry for us.

Nicholas

[MCoving]

The assurance debate again huh lol Same old information and yet its rather quiet simple. We have assurance because of what Christ did for us, and because of what God is doing for us now. We have assurance because our eyes were open and because we were found by God when wandering lost in the woods. Its nothing we did to come to the Faith, but because we came to the Faith by God we can be assured that we are His Child. Assurance is the result of us having the faith which we do, the knowing which we hold. And we know because God is our Teacher and He has put it in our hearts to believe.
Assurance is just the knowledge that we are Gods children, and so many things in our life, our souls, the Bible point to us being Gods Children there's multiple things which assure us of being in His Family. Even just this week I was assured that I am Gods child I see Him working in my life, and I continue to have love for God and belief even through the hard times. But ultimately a person can rely upon only the fact that they believe that their eyes are open and they are found by God. That is all one needs to know they are saved and His children. SO no matter how many sinful things I do, no matter what I do period I know I am adopted by God to be His Child. That never changes, no one can take us away from the love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

[alt731]

As you may have been able to tell from the lateness of this reply, I have been very busy. I simply don't have the time to reply right now. It takes me ages to write out a message, think about how I want to phrase it, read it through, make it clearer so that it will be more easily understood, read it through again, check it again, make more alterations...etc... it can take me a week, and I just don't have time for that right now.

But...if anybody would like to continue this conversation via Skype for an hour or two, I'd be happy to do that. Private message me on the network with your Skype name, and the best date/time for you. I live in England, so I'd only be available in the morning (which is my afternoon/evening).