Can A Saved Person Become Defiled?

[Debbiek]

According to Scripture, can a truly saved Christian, become "defiled"?

[jhamrick]

i think this is asking if a Christian can lose Salvation.

NO.
If someone were to lose their salvation, then it wasn't salvation in the first place was it? THe word itself implies being saved from something. What were you saved from if you died and went to Hell. Nothing, you weren't saved. Seriously think about it. It doesn't make any sense to think that we could lose something eternal.
Eternal itself means never-ending. Come on.

Also,what gets you unsaved? Some act of sin or whatever, but the strange thing is, my Salvation has never been based on how good I am. If that were true we would all fry. My SAlvation is based on God's grace alone. So how could I lose what I never earned.
Is my sin going to take Jesus of the cross? What about keep him in the grave.
NO!

That is the power in salvation. Jesus's death and resurection. NOT MY ABILITY NOT TO SIN.

What do you think, that God can only tolerate a certain amount of sin?
God can tolerate NO sin.
SO if your theory were true, you would lose your salvation every time you sin, no matter how big or little.

Praise God that my SAlvation does not depend on me.

[Debbiek]

1Cor.3:16-17- "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17- "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." Matthew 15:18-20- "But those things which proceedeth out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." Talking to His disciples, Jesus says in Matt.24:12-13- "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved". 50 & 51- "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for HIM, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping & gnashing of teeth." 1Cor. 10 is speaking to the brethren, verse 12- "Wherefore let him who thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Acts 20:28-31... Paul speaks of the fact that he has not shunned teaching the"all" that God wills. he tells the dangers to protect us, not just the part that makes us feel joy. "shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock." He goes on to remind them that he had cried in front of them every day & night for 3 years while warning them. Solomon was very wise indeed & he fell.

[jhamrick]

OK, but if you think that means you can lose your salvation, you have interpreted incorrectly.

[Debbiek]

& how do you interpret it?

[Debbiek]

In Matt.15:19- Jesus says that (scripture quoted above) "fornications" defile a man. In this verse, the word fornications comes from the original Greek word porneuo, which also means "to practice idolatry". Therefore idolatry defiles a man. 1 Sam.15:23- "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubborness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from BEING KING." The word "as" was not in the original text, it was added for clarity. So stubborness IS idolatry & rebellion IS witchcraft. Being stubborn about our great intelligence in interpreting the Word, may well be our defilement when we teach others. If we value our own interpretation, or any man's, more than what the Holy Spirit is telling us, if we are vain in knowledge & our pride prevents us from sensing the uneasiness the Holy Spirit has placed in us, then we are idolaters.

[jhamrick]

Certainly not that you can lose your salvation. I don't even know how to argue this because I don't see the point in the scripture you posted.

If you could lose something eternal, then it wasn't eternal was it?
If you suffer a fate you were saved from, then you weren't saved from it were you?

It doesn't even make sense to think that anyone covered in Jesus' blood would perish.

[Brandan Kraft]

Yes, Josh, that seems to be perfectly logical to me...

But if Debbie is to remain consistent with her approach to free will, she must concede that man can lose his salvation.

With this being so, she is remaining true to her presupposition.

[jhamrick]

Wow.

What a frightening way to have to live, worried if you're gonna be able to earn you're salvation or not.

MAn I'm glad mine was a free gift.

[Brandan Kraft]

John 6:38-40 For I have come down from Heaven to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27-29 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

1 Cor. 1:8-9 He will keep you strong to the end so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I have preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Php. 1:6 Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

[Debbiek]

Then according to Scripture, some of us remain saved to the end, and some of us become defiled. The scripture tells us in Jesus' words what defiles a man, (quoted above), so "once saved always saved" cannot be a true statement according to the final authority. But my question has to do with explaining these Scriptures. None of the Scriptures that I quoted are wrong. None of the Scriptures Kermie quoted are wrong. I don't know the answer or I would have said so, but the reality is, "once saved always saved" is not Biblical. So how does a saved person become defiled , as in, I need an example .

[Andrew]

Debbie,

I think you shld first define what YOU mean by defiled/defiled Christian. That'll help the discussion.

[countrymouse]

DebbieK,

There were some in the first-century congregations who did not persevere in the faith, who apostasized. But what did John have to say about them? Kermie quoted this verse in his post:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

What do you think John meant by what he wrote?

Also, I'm wondering about your statement:

Being stubborn about our great intelligence in interpreting the Word, may well be our defilement when we teach others. If we value our own interpretation, or any man's, more than what the Holy Spirit is telling us, if we are vain in knowledge & our pride prevents us from sensing the uneasiness the Holy Spirit has placed in us, then we are idolaters.

You've said something similar in another thread; what is your point? If someone in the forums has offended you, why not send that person a private message and start a dialogue about it?

If you think a brother or sister in Christ is committing a sin as serious as idolatry, shouldn't you care enough to share your concern with that person?

[Debbiek]

Thank you, but no one has offended me. My study is not with MY OWN interpretation of defilement, but with BIBLICAL DESCRIPTION of defilement. It is mentioned quite often in the Bible & what I have said so far, is as far as I've gotten, so really at a standstill at this point. The Bible has intent for mentioning defilement so often, & I have spent time researching the greek & Hebrew, & have relayed such. MOdern day example which meets scripture definition is what I'm looking for. FOr example, God's not going to destroy us for misinterpreting/teaching one little verse I presume, but to what point would we become defiled according to scripture, today? I am NOT looking for an argument. I am looking for an answer. Thanks for your help/

[countrymouse]

Thanks for your reply, Debbie!

And I'm not looking for an argument, either. But I would like to help you if I can, and I appreciate any help you offer me as we both seek to grow in grace and understanding.

If I may, let me offer this as food for thought...

I am familiar with the passages you quoted concerning defilement. Paul and the other writers of NT epistles exhorted the various congregations to keep themselves pure in the faith, and warned them about what would happen if they didn't. With this in mind, let's look at Romans 1: (ASV)

1. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2. which he promised afore through his prophets in the holy scriptures,
3. concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4. who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord,
5. through whom we received grace and apostleship, unto obedience of faith among all the nations, for his name's sake;
6. among whom are ye also called to be Jesus Christ's:
7. To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is proclaimed throughout the whole world.
9. For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the gospel of his Son, how unceasingly I make mention of you, always in my prayers
10. making request, if by any means now at length I may be prospered by the will of God to come unto you.
11. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12. that is, that I with you may be comforted in you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine.
13. And I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you (and was hindered hitherto), that I might have some fruit in you also, even as in the rest of the Gentiles.
14. I am debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.
15. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you also that are in Rome.
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19. because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
21. because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves:
25. for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
28. And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29. being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful:
32. who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.


First, notice that Paul addressed his letter "To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:" (vs 7). Notice something else Paul said: "So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you also that are in Rome." Now, why would Paul desire to preach the gospel to those who had already been transformed by its power? Let's draw a logical inference here; it's ok to do that. Obviously Paul knew that some who were participants in that congregation were not yet transformed. I'm sure he also expected new seekers to be among them, as well, by the time he would arrive.

As we read further in Romans, we begin to see that the church must have been experiencing some problems. It looks like the Jewish believers were thumbing their noses at the Gentile believers, insisting that without circumcision and following the letter of the Law, the Gentiles were either not truly saved, or were second-class citizens of the kingdom. Hardly behavior becoming of Christians, is it?!

In fact, this was the primary controversy that the apostolic Church faced, and it was a doctrinal one. It could be called "Judaizing." We find Paul addressing the same problem in many other places, such as Galatia and Ephesus. It's one of the heresies the writer of the book of Hebrews addressed.

The writers of the NT epistles had other false teachings to address as well; John wrote to combat the early form of gnosticism, which taught that Jesus couldn't have truly been human, but must have been an angel instead. James warned against antinomianism, which is lawless thinking and behavior.

My point is that some of the participants in every one of those congregations were not true believers, not among God's elect. If all had been true believers, living in the power of the Holy Spirit, those churches wouldn't have been having so much trouble! That is why John said that those antichrists who went out from among them were not truly of them. Remember, Jesus had warned his disciples that wolves in sheep's clothing would come among them. None of them were running around with "h" for "hypocrite" stamped on their foreheads, so the whole congregation was warned!

Jesus also explicitly said that no true believer would fail to persevere to the end.

John 6:
35. Jesus said unto them. I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not.
37. All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40. For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
41. The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, I am the bread which came down out of heaven.
42. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how doth he now say, I am come down out of heaven?
43. Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44. No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.
46. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he that is from God, he hath seen the Father.
47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.
48. I am the bread of life.


John 10:
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
29. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. I and the Father are one.


Debbie, those who fall away do so because they have never been true believers, made regenerate by God's grace. They may deceive themselves for years or even a lifetime, but no one to whom God has given understanding and eternal life would ever leave him! I know this personally, for he has carried me through troubles I could never have endured apart from his provision for me! If persevering were all up to me, I would never make it. I have faced situations in which I have had to pray: "Father, please hold on to me, for I may not be able to cling to you through this."

How I hope you will be able to come to trust God completely to do for you what you cannot do for yourself as you travel through this life; he will never let you down, for he is faithful. He glories in the perseverance of his chosen in the face of adversity, and he will not let our faith fail! Underneath us are the everlasting arms!

[Christ_†_Alone]

Originally posted by Debbiek
According to Scripture, can a truly saved Christian, become "defiled"?

I've read this thread, and unless I've missed something, I dont know what YOU mean by defiled.

The Greek word, as it's used in Matthew 15:20, is koinoo, and it simply means to make common, or to count as unclean.

I do know, that the truly regenerated, have this promise:

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

(Philippians 1:6)

[Debbiek]

Thank you so much Countrymouse!!! The scripture you quoted was a good example, even for today of defilement. I am not worried about losing my own salvation, ever. In Matt. 15:18-20, Jesus tells what defiles a man, & like CA says,(ty), it's taken from the Greek word Koinoo meaning unclean, or pollute. Forms of the word defile occur 121 times from Lev. thru Rev. In other verses it means"unholy". It is also taken from the Hebrew word "tame" which means: to be foul, pollute, make utterly unclean. Now, to make something UNclean, it had to be clean in the first place. Our word pollute means: to make dirty, something which was once clean. I could say that they were not "sincere" in their faith. I cannot fathom a Christian committing murder or even adultery.(Matt.15) I appreciate those helping me study. ty

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by Debbiek
I cannot fathom a Christian committing murder or even adultery.

Debbie, neither can I. And if they did, I would conclude they probably aren't a Christian, nor were they ever a Christian. Thank goodness that's not for me to decide though, eh?

[jhamrick]

"I cannot fathom a Christian committing murder or even adultery"


You know, I kinda can. Satan can be very deceptive, and all of us have our weak moments. Of course, I pray I never fall to that.

IS there a difference to God anyway? Isn't all sin deplorable in His sight? And if God is just, if he decided to take away your Salvation because you committed adultery, wouldn't he also take it away if you told a little white lie?

Once again, our salvation is not based on our good deeds or lack of bad deeds. It completely falls on GOd's grace.

[Brandan Kraft]

I agree with you, but have a different perspective....

I do not like to teach "once saved always saved" if it means that a person can continue in sin and still be saved. However, I believe a better way of teaching the "perseverence of the saints" is to state that God WILL lead the Christian to persevere in the way of holiness until glorification. This is not to say we won't sin, but if we do, we will be convicted of our sin, repent, and return to the way of holiness.

I'm not saying you can commit murder, and not be saved. I just believe that if you never repent of the murder, it shows that you were never saved in the first place.

1 John 3:9, Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God

"sin" here indicates an ongoing action, so it might be better to translate as follows....

Everyone who has been born of God cannot continue sinning because the Holy Spirit will convict him of his sins and turn him from it.

I think it is highly doubtful a true Christian would commit adultery or commit murder, as the Holy Spirit would be convicting him of the very thought of it. But if we assume the Christian suppresses this conviction and goes through with the action, then the Holy Spirit will overwhelm him with conviction and he will repent. And by this repentance he will receive forgiveness.