Resurrection Body (to countrymouse)

[Andrew]

Thanks for the earlier response. But I'm still confused as to what you really believe. You have provided lots of scripture but only a little of your interpretation or what you believe, which is what i'm interested in.

So I'm just gonna use the same passage (1 Cor 15:35-58) you provided and go thru it. My focus is strictly on the resurrection body -- and what Paul says about it.

What's the spiritual body?
Notice how many times the word "body" or "bodies" appears in the passage -- 12 times. Paul also talks abt the plant, seed, sun, moon and stars having "bodies" of their own. All these are physical objects. It is clear from this that Paul is talking about BODILY things not 'spirits'. The emphasis is BODY.

Notice also v44 says raised a "spiritual BODY", not raised a "spirit". There's a difference between spirit and spiritual body. Spirits don't have bodies, that's why demons want to possses bodies of animals or humans. That's why the Holy Spirit comes to dwell IN our bodies. If they had bodies then they wldnt need to inhabit a body.

Well then, what is this "spiritual BODY" like that Paul talks about here? No one knows for sure, although Christ's resurrected body gives us some clues. He could appear and disappear (spirit-like qualities) as well as eat and be touched (phyiscal-like qualities). We know well enough that He did not come back from the dead as a floating 'ghost'!

Why take the clues from Christ? Can I do this. Yes, simply cos he's the firstfruits, our forerunner, our example (v20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept).

based on the above, Christians do not have this spiritual body yet, for none of us are yet like Christ after he arose -- IN TERMS OF the type of 'body' he had.

Not part of being born again
v49 says: Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Notice Paul uses "we" and "shall". ie he's talking about himself and his fellow Christians - who are already born again/Spirit-filled. The fact that he says this means that he is yet to put on the image of the man from heaven/Christ. ie his body had not been changed yet to this new spiritual body.

This shld totally dispel any belief that when we are born again, our natural body is changed to the spiritual body as part of the new birth experience.

One or the other not both simultaneously
The next point is that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. So how is it that preterist already believe that they are already living in this kingdom (in its full fulfilment sense) on earth yet still obviously have a flesh and blood body?

Also, I feel that v53 -- "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" -- seems to say that one replaces the other, in the sense that one wldn't put on 2 shirts. One supercedes the other. ie your body is either perishable or imperishable. You either have the natural body or the spirtual body. not both at the same time. you cant be two bodies.

so again, obviously Christians do not have the spiritual body yet cos they are still living in a flesh and blood shell. they still fall sick, get wrinkles, get older, etc.

One time event
Finally, as i have mentioned b4, Paul is talking about a one time future event --- there is only one "mystery", one "all changed" (not some today some next year some next millennium), one "last trumpet call", one "flash". one "twinkling of the eye", one "coming true" of the saying of victory over death. That this event has been and continues to happen to Christians down through church history and even today is really absurd.

On the other hand, to say that it already happened in AD70 and so is not going to happen anymore begs the question of why the special treatment for AD70 Christians. But more importantly, it goes against v22 -- For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive (talking about resurrection of the dead).

I hope this will answer some of your questions for now. I'll go over your post again and respond as and when I understand what you are tryin got say.

peace

[countrymouse]

Hi, Andrew,

Originally posted by Andrew
So I'm just gonna use the same passage (1 Cor 15:35-58) you provided and go thru it. My focus is strictly on the resurrection body -- and what Paul says about it.

What's the spiritual body?
Notice how many times the word "body" or "bodies" appears in the passage -- 12 times. Paul also talks abt the plant, seed, sun, moon and stars having "bodies" of their own. All these are physical objects. It is clear from this that Paul is talking about BODILY things not 'spirits'. The emphasis is BODY.

Notice also v44 says raised a "spiritual BODY", not raised a "spirit". There's a difference between spirit and spiritual body. Spirits don't have bodies, that's why demons want to possses bodies of animals or humans. That's why the Holy Spirit comes to dwell IN our bodies. If they had bodies then they wldnt need to inhabit a body.

I agree that verses 35-49 are about bodily resurrection; the focus is the kind of body with which the dead are raised. The question Paul addressed in this passage is "How are the dead raised and with what kind of body do they come." The resurrection body is a spiritual body. I haven't argued otherwise.

Well then, what is this "spiritual BODY" like that Paul talks about here? No one knows for sure, although Christ's resurrected body gives us some clues. He could appear and disappear (spirit-like qualities) as well as eat and be touched (phyiscal-like qualities). We know well enough that He did not come back from the dead as a floating 'ghost'!

Why take the clues from Christ? Can I do this. Yes, simply cos he's the firstfruits, our forerunner, our example (v20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept).

based on the above, Christians do not have this spiritual body yet, for none of us are yet like Christ after he arose -- IN TERMS OF the type of 'body' he had.

As I said in conversation with Odyssey, I'm looking into it. The living believer is changed, but change does not necessarily mean a bodily change. Has my physical body been replaced? Obviously not! Lol. But I definitely believe, because I believe all has been fulfilled, that I have been clothed with eternity, so that I may be in direct fellowship with God.

Not part of being born again
v49 says: Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Notice Paul uses "we" and "shall". ie he's talking about himself and his fellow Christians - who are already born again/Spirit-filled. The fact that he says this means that he is yet to put on the image of the man from heaven/Christ. ie his body had not been changed yet to this new spiritual body.

This shld totally dispel any belief that when we are born again, our natural body is changed to the spiritual body as part of the new birth experience.

I repeat: I have not and am not saying that this transformation is the same as the new birth. One (the new birth) must necessarily take place before we can believe. The other (the transformation) comes subsequent to belief.

Second, yes, Paul used "we," because he was addressing his contemporaries. He also wrote this well before when preterists say the parousia took place. So the fact that Paul had yet to be transformed does not mean the parousia didn't happen during that generation.

One or the other not both simultaneously
The next point is that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. So how is it that preterist already believe that they are already living in this kingdom (in its full fulfilment sense) on earth yet still obviously have a flesh and blood body?

Also, I feel that v53 -- "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" -- seems to say that one replaces the other, in the sense that one wldn't put on 2 shirts. One supercedes the other. ie your body is either perishable or imperishable. You either have the natural body or the spirtual body. not both at the same time. you cant be two bodies.

so again, obviously Christians do not have the spiritual body yet cos they are still living in a flesh and blood shell. they still fall sick, get wrinkles, get older, etc.

"For this corruptible [my physical body] must put on [be dressed in] incorruption, and this mortal [again, physical body], must put on [again, getting dressed] immortality." With verse 50, Paul begins to address the transformation that must come upon living believers in order to inherit the kingdom of God. He does not say that their physical bodies must die and be raised, he says that the believers have to be changed. It's a provisional transformation, not a resurrection. I suppose jak may disagree with me, but that's how I see it. It is illustrated in the provision God made for Adam and Eve by clothing them in animal skins (the first shedding of blood for provision for sin). God provided the shedding of animal blood for the forgiveness of sins so that his wrath would not break out against them and end their lives in an untimely manner. (The blood of animals, however, could not give eternal life.) God clothes our mortal bodies with immortality, so that he may dwell among us.

One time event
Finally, as i have mentioned b4, Paul is talking about a one time future event --- there is only one "mystery", one "all changed" (not some today some next year some next millennium), one "last trumpet call", one "flash". one "twinkling of the eye", one "coming true" of the saying of victory over death. That this event has been and continues to happen to Christians down through church history and even today is really absurd.

There was only one "sound as of a rushing of a mighty wind" and only one event during which cloven tongues of fire settled upon the believers. Does that mean that no one else received the Holy Spirit after the day of Pentecost? Of course not! Neither, then, does it follow that the resurrection of dead believers and transformation of living believers is a one-time event. Both began with a remarkable, glorious initial occurrance, both continue now and shall do so througout eternity.

Now, Andrew, it really is your turn! Deal with those time statements, ok?

Blessings,
countrymouse

[Andrew]

Ok my turn,

1) Your use of Pentecost as a counter argument to one-time event. My response wld be:

Acts 2: 38* Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39* For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

I wld have no problem agreeing with you if you could show me where the Bible says something like that (the bolded part) with regard to what Paul was saying in 1 Cor 15 abt the resurrection of the dead and/or the transformation of believers who are "alive and remain".

Secondly, Paul says of the transformation "we shall all be changed" — those asleep in Christ as well as those alive in Christ. He did not say some will be changed, some next time round. He says "last trumpet". How can it be "last" if it keeps on happening?

I would also encourage u to read 1 and 2 Thess and see if you still get the impression that the rapture/resurrection it is a repeatable event.

-----------
The living believer is changed, but change does not necessarily mean a bodily change.
------------
I've no problems with that! When we are born again, our spirit is made alive by the power of God. And the Holy Spirit comes and lives in us. That is already one miraculous change. As our new spirit grows in maturity (eg thru studying the Word) the Holy Spirit also helps us change (eg correct our behaviour). Our mind is also changed as we think more in line with the Word of God. But our physical body remains pretty much the same although illnesses can be healed, thru gifts of the Spirit. But that is also change. But it certainly is not the final fullness type of transformation Paul talks abt in 1 Cor 15 where we take on a totally new body that is immortal and incoruptible. The Christians crippled, terminally ill, retarded, spastics etc have this to look forward to!

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He also wrote this well before when preterists say the parousia took place. So the fact that Paul had yet to be transformed does not mean the parousia didn't happen during that generation.
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My reason for stating that was simply to show you that this transformation is not the new birth - which u have agreed.
If the resurrection/rapture did indeed happen in AD70, all Christians would have had disappeared, the church wld have been off the earth, becos they all would have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air as the Bible says. That wld only leave non-believers on earth after AD70. So how come so many of us are still around today. Who started from scratch again? -- laying the foundations all over again, building the church again, preaching etc?

-----------
"For this corruptible [my physical body] must put on [be dressed in] incorruption, and this mortal [again, physical body], must put on [again, getting dressed] immortality." With verse 50, Paul begins to address the transformation that must come upon living believers in order to inherit the kingdom of God. He does not say that their physical bodies must die and be raised, he says that the believers have to be changed.
--------------
Yes exactly! That's why I said Paul is talking about a single event which has TWO things happening one after the other. First the dead in Christ are raised from their graves followed by those Christians who are alive (see 1,2 Thess also). The latter will be changed in a twinkling of an eye and 'sucked up' into the air to meet the Lord. But both groups are changed into the same type of spiritual body. ie the Bible doesnt say that there is a different type of spiritual body for each grp.

I think the problem here is what it means to say "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". Here it means that one cannot see God face to face or stand in his presence/glory in heaven with a flesh and blood body. Why? Firstly, the flesh has sin for "nothing good dwells in my flesh" Paul said. Secondly, one can't get sucked up to the air to meet the Lord and then proceed to the third heavens or even the second heaven in his limited body. eg an astronaut cant survive in space without a suit. Thirdly, maybe God just wants to give us something super! like what Christ has.

I do not, however, deny the point that in a spiritual sense, we are in God's kingdom. All Christians I know acknowledge this. But we're talking about a full complete fulfillment of what it means to live in His kingdom on earth. Yes we do get a taste of heaven, God's presence, gifts of the Spirit, etc every now and then but its not the complete thing yet. I mean if God tabernacled with his people in the OT (he dwelled in the Holy of Holies), he will surely do so again - literal 1000 yr reign of Christ on earth. but that is another thread altogether

[countrymouse]

Time statements, Andrew! And, I will get back to your above objections asap.

Since this thread has been designated for the bodily resurrection issue, we'll stick to that here. We can debate time statements on the "Food for eschatological thought" thread.

Later!
countrymouse

[countrymouse]

Originally posted by Andrew

1) Your use of Pentecost as a counter argument to one-time event. My response wld be:

Acts 2: 38* Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39* For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

I wld have no problem agreeing with you if you could show me where the Bible says something like that (the bolded part) with regard to what Paul was saying in 1 Cor 15 abt the resurrection of the dead and/or the transformation of believers who are "alive and remain".

Let's look at some things the Bible has to say about the bride of the Lamb, the New Jerusalem. You would say that she waits in heaven until the end of the millennium and the creation of a new physical earth and sky. You would say that once that happens, only the citizens of the New Jerusalem, i.e., the saved, from throughout human history, will be living on earth at that time.

Revelation 21:
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Who are the nations whose glory and honor will be brought into the city? Who are the unclean and those who practice abomination and lying who shall never come into it?

also from chapter 21:
1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

What nations will need to be healed, if only those who are already saved will be living on this new earth of the futurist paradigm?

Not only that, but let's look at the first words of Peter's first sermon in Acts 2.

14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
15 “For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams

Did Peter deliver his first sermon during the last days, or was he mistaken? Remember, he was filled with the Holy Spirit when he applied Joel's prophecy to the events of Pentecost. Peter preached that the event they had just witnessed was THE fulfillment of what the Holy Spirit had said through the prophet Joel about the last days. This was the sign of the coming judgment, and the end of the old covenant age. Notice that in verse 40, Peter exhorted the listeners to be saved from that perverse generation! It was the same generation Jesus said would be judged for all the innocent blood shed on the earth! (Matthew 23).

Originally posted by Andrew

Secondly, Paul says of the transformation "we shall all be changed" — those asleep in Christ as well as those alive in Christ. He did not say some will be changed, some next time round. He says "last trumpet". How can it be "last" if it keeps on happening?

The last trumpet need not keep on happening any more than the sound of a mighty rushing wind and cloven tongues of fire must happen every time a new believer receives the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by Andrew

I would also encourage u to read 1 and 2 Thess and see if you still get the impression that the rapture/resurrection it is a repeatable event.

I've read them both several times. The initial event, like Pentecost, is not repeated. The ongoing application, like the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on believers, is repeated.

Originally posted by Andrew

-----------
The living believer is changed, but change does not necessarily mean a bodily change.
------------
I've no problems with that! When we are born again, our spirit is made alive by the power of God. And the Holy Spirit comes and lives in us. That is already one miraculous change. As our new spirit grows in maturity (eg thru studying the Word) the Holy Spirit also helps us change (eg correct our behaviour). Our mind is also changed as we think more in line with the Word of God. But our physical body remains pretty much the same although illnesses can be healed, thru gifts of the Spirit. But that is also change. But it certainly is not the final fullness type of transformation Paul talks abt in 1 Cor 15 where we take on a totally new body that is immortal and incoruptible. The Christians crippled, terminally ill, retarded, spastics etc have this to look forward to!

Our physical bodies are not replaced, but they are clothed with immortality, as per 1 Corinthians 15:53. At death, our physical bodies simply cease to encumber us. Has my physical body been replaced? No, but I wear my spiritual body like a garment until my mortal body dies. Can I walk through walls? Not as long as i have to drag this mortal body along!

Originally posted by Andrew

My reason for stating that was simply to show you that this transformation is not the new birth - which u have agreed.
If the resurrection/rapture did indeed happen in AD70, all Christians would have had disappeared, the church wld have been off the earth, becos they all would have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air as the Bible says. That wld only leave non-believers on earth after AD70. So how come so many of us are still around today. Who started from scratch again? -- laying the foundations all over again, building the church again, preaching etc?

This model of the rapture/transformation of living believers at the parousia of Christ dates only from the nineteenth century. Unless you can demonstrate that, taken together, the NT time-frame statements concerning the second coming can be discounted, the events of history demonstrate that the rapture was not a disappearance of believers.

Originally posted by Andrew

I do not, however, deny the point that in a spiritual sense, we are in God's kingdom. All Christians I know acknowledge this. But we're talking about a full complete fulfillment of what it means to live in His kingdom on earth. Yes we do get a taste of heaven, God's presence, gifts of the Spirit, etc every now and then but its not the complete thing yet. I mean if God tabernacled with his people in the OT (he dwelled in the Holy of Holies), he will surely do so again - literal 1000 yr reign of Christ on earth. but that is another thread altogether

What I've been saying all along, Andrew, is that God's kingdom IS spiritual! We do live in his kingdom on earth until our mortal bodies die. God tabernacles among us today, but not from the inner chamber of a tent or stone temple, where only the high priest can go once a year. We are the great and glorious city that he has built for himself as his dwelling place, and he is our dwelling place from generation to generation.

I do not pretend to speak from Sinai, Andrew. Let the Holy Scripture speak for itself. Will you not consider the time statements and their implications for the futurist concepts of Christ's return and the resurrection/transformation event, as well as the judgment?

Blessings,
countrymouse

[Andrew]

countrymouse,

I'll answer your ?s in the Food for E thot thread since it's now headed in the direction of time statements.

[HIS]

I must say, you guys do post some interesting stuff!

I am on the side of Andrew's arguments...

HIS

p.s. where do you guys find the time to write all of this?
Keep it up...It's very thought provoking!

[countrymouse]

It's called sleep deprivation! lol . I gotta have a nap today!

[Odyssey]

HIS,

You mean the side that ignores the time statements and implies that Jesus and apostles were wrong?

Grace to you,

jak

[countrymouse]

Throwing down the gauntlets again? Must be a guy thing!

Andrew,

We'll take the time statements in small bites, starting with John the Baptist in Matthew.

Matthew 3:
1. And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying,
2. Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
10. And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11. I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
12. whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.

(I know you've already acknowledged that the kingdom of heaven came in a spiritual sense, but bear with me.)

Reading with audience relevance in mind, think about some questions:

1. When did John say the kingdom of heaven was "at hand?"
2. What did he mean by saying that the axe was already in position at the root of the trees?
3. Why did John say that Christ's fan (winnowing tool) was in his hand?


"See" you later,
countrymouse

[countrymouse]

Unfortunately, Andrew will not be able to join this discussion, so the time statement debate is open to all. Since it's not the subject of this thread, I'm going to close this one and start a new one.