Progressive fulfillment?

[Brandan Kraft]

A friend of mine I've been flyfishing with sent me his critique of complete preterism. Od, Parousia70, cm, would you mind telling me what you think of it? Thanks friends!

We had a couple of men come and present the full preterist position to our mid-week Bible study a few weeks ago. It seems to me, however, that full preterism proposes the same hermeneutical error the early dispensationalists did. The early dispensationalists wanted everything concerning the kingdom postponed, and the full preterists want everything concerning the kingdom now or already accomplished. I still see progressive fulfillment of prophecy as the simplest explanation of how things are fulfilled and yet elements of many of the prophecies are not yet fulfilled, or not completely so until the consummation of the age. That still allows me a consistent literal hermeneutic throughout all the scripture. Most spiritualizing methods of hermeneutics seem to me to stem from Gentile pride that Paul warns against in Romans and the error that God is utterly finished with national Israel. But they cannot explain sufficiently to me Matt 23.39; Luke 21.24; Acts 1.6; Romans 8:18-25; 11:11-12, 15, 25-27; 15:8-12. There is an age to come in which all the prophecies to Israel will be realized fully (Eze 36.6-15, 22-32, note also the allusion of Romans 11:15 to Eze. 37), and we Gentiles have spiritually and prematurely (before Israel) entered into the wonder of the wisdom and knowledge of God (Rom 11:33), that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus (Eph 2.7). There is no emphasis in the NT concerning how or when this will be brought about (Acts 1.7) other than at His coming, but the fact that it will be brought about is nevertheless certain (Acts 1.11).

As a side note, the common "at hand," "soon," "quickly" phrases have always been used in prophecy, particularly in the OT day of the Lord prophecies, to denote imminency and suddenness. I think they are verbal signals to us of the type of literature we are dealing with--prophetic formulas if you will. Of course there were literal fulfillments to some of these passages within the temporal terms, but many prophecies seem to look beyond the near fulfillment. Isaiah 11, note verse 10 "in that day" is an example (cf. 10:24 "in a very little while," 10: 27 "so it will be in that day," 11.1 "then," and 11.11 "then it will happen on that day," et.al.). The chapter begins with the birth of the Savior and his ministry among men, but jumps to his reigning with a rod (v. 4, cf. "rod of iron" in Psa 2.9; Rev 2.27; 12.5; 19.15) and the age to come (vv. 6-10). Without seeing this prophecy fulfilled in stages would leave one with a very truncated and bizarre theology indeed.

Since you brought up my photography page, I will use it as an illustration. I liken prophetic perspective (as the commentators call it) to "depth of field" in photography. Depth of field is determined by three factors. 1) Distance to the subject 2) focal length or angle or view of your lens, and 3) aperture of the lens. When your distance to the subject is short, your telephoto lens is zoomed all the way in, and your aperture opened up to let in the most light, you have the shallowest depth of field possible. The foreground and the background are a blur. I think that happens with understanding prophecy. The more closely we focus in on the details of a specific unfulfilled prophecy the less our understanding of the specific fulfillment of that prophecy. But the more we widen our perspective and see it in the context of the larger prophetic field, the more accurate we are about placing it in its proper relationship to the Bible as a whole. There is a darkness or enigmatic aspect to prophecy (Numbers 12.6-8). We of course living at this time have the advantage of the Bible as a whole and trying to understand specific prophecies within a larger framework. But there are limits to what we will ever be able to know in this life. 1 Corinthians 13.12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known.

Hope this gives you some food for thought. Hang tough to His Word.

[Parousia70]

Hi Kermie...
I'll take a stab at a few points your friend made:

>>"I still see progressive fulfillment of prophecy as the simplest explanation of how things are fulfilled and yet elements of many of the prophecies are not yet fulfilled, or not completely so until the consummation of the age."<<

Consumation of What age? The Christian Age? The Mosaic age? another age alltogether?

About progressive fulfillment, how would anyone who holds to it know for sure when a prophesy has been completely fulfilled?

>>"That still allows me a consistent literal hermeneutic throughout all the scripture. Most spiritualizing methods of hermeneutics seem to me to stem from Gentile pride that Paul warns against in Romans and the error that God is utterly finished with national Israel."<<

coupled with:

>>"As a side note, the common "at hand," "soon," "quickly" phrases have always been used in prophecy, particularly in the OT day of the Lord prophecies, to denote imminency and suddenness. I think they are verbal signals to us of the type of literature we are dealing with--prophetic formulas if you will. <<

I find this confusing. On the one hand, your friend claims a consistant literal hermeneutic, but on the other hand, applies a non literal meaning to the time statements.

How is that consistantly literal? your friend demonstrates to me that he believes as soon as a literal interpratation goes against a future to us coming, that literal interpratation must be thrown out.

I believe the "literal meaning" of scripture is it's "intended meaning"

>>"The more closely we focus in on the details of a specific unfulfilled prophecy the less our understanding of the specific fulfillment of that prophecy."<<

Thus identifying yet another beautiul aspect of preterism.
The more we see prophesy as unfulfilled, the more clouded our understanding. Only when it is seen from the perspective of past fulfillment, is the haze ultimately lifted (my personal experience anyway)


Peace in Christ,
Peter

[countrymouse]

Except… there’s that covenant context thing! How can you have the change of covenants in 70AD and then have some more of it later???


NAS Matthew 23:39
39. "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' "

Jesus quoted Psalm 118:26; here’s the context:

22. The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief corner stone.
23. This is the LORD’s doing;
It is marvelous in our eyes.
24. This is the day which the LORD has made;
Let us rejoice and be glad in it.
25. O LORD, do save, we beseech you;
O LORD, we beseech you, do send prosperity!
26. Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the LORD;
We have blessed you from the house of the LORD.

A little earlier, when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey colt, the crowd had cried “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” (Matthew 21). “Hosanna” means “O save,” as in verse 25 of Psalm 118. Now, several times we read in the New Testament that all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved, in reference to salvation from God’s wrath or judgment.

Just before the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11, at the resurrection of the two witnesses, this happens:

NAS Revelation 11:13
13. And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

In the preterist view, this symbolizes events that happened very close to the end of the Roman-Jewish War. In my opinion, it fulfilled Matthew 23:39.

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NAS Luke 21:24
24. and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Well, Jerusalem was trampled under foot by Gentiles until their times were fulfilled! That would be the Roman-Jewish war. Revelation 11:2 gave the time period as forty-two months, which may actually be exactly the duration of Titus’ siege, but I’d have to look it up.

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NAS Acts 1:6
6. So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

Paul told us in Romans that Israel was preserved through an elect remnant, and that Gentiles were grafted branches. The tree was still Israel! Israel did receive her promised New Covenant Messianic kingdom!

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NAS Romans 8:18-25
18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21. that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for {our} adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he {already} sees?
25. But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Yes, the whole Covenant creation awaited redemption from the law of sin and death, from the requirements of a covenant that could not give eternal life. The earthly tabernacle (the temple) was removed, so that the heavenly tabernacle could descend.

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NAS Romans 11:11-12
11. I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation {has come} to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
12. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!


NAS Romans 11:15
15. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will {their} acceptance be but life from the dead?

Here’s where it does truly get complicated. In Romans 9:6, Paul said that only the children of promise (the elect Jews) were truly of Israel. That’s what we have to keep in mind to understand everything that followed. Clearly, there were Jews who would not be saved, according to both Scripture and the record of history. Even if we assumed that this referred to an entire generation of Jews either now or in the future, we have to admit that most Jewish people, for nearly two thousand years, have died in their sins. Therefore, “all Israel” cannot be applied to national Israel by any stretch of the imagination. Some of the elect Jews stumbled for a while, during the apostolic ministry to the nations (Gentiles) in fulfillment of prophecy. By implication, when all the elect Gentiles of that generation had been grafted in, the remaining elect Jews were then grafted back in as well. Paul, in writing the letter to the Romans, admonished both Jewish and Gentile believers of THAT generation not to look down their noses at each other.

NAS Romans 11:25-27
25. For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26. and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27. "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

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NAS Romans 15:8-12
8. For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises {given} to the fathers,
9. and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, "THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES, AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME."
10. Again he says, "REJOICE, O GENTILES, WITH HIS PEOPLE."
11. And again, "PRAISE THE LORD ALL YOU GENTILES, AND LET ALL THE PEOPLES PRAISE HIM."
12. Again Isaiah says, "THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE, AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES, IN HIM SHALL THE GENTILES HOPE."

I don’t see the problem here! ???

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NAS Romans 15:8-12
8. For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises {given} to the fathers,
9. and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, "THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES, AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME."
10. Again he says, "REJOICE, O GENTILES, WITH HIS PEOPLE."
11. And again, "PRAISE THE LORD ALL YOU GENTILES, AND LET ALL THE PEOPLES PRAISE HIM."
12. Again Isaiah says, "THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE, AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES, IN HIM SHALL THE GENTILES HOPE."

[countrymouse]

NAS Ezekiel 36:6-15
6. 'Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and to the hills, to the ravines and to the valleys, "Thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and in My wrath because you have endured the insults of the nations.'
7. "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'I have sworn that surely the nations which are around you will themselves endure their insults.
8. 'But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come.
9. 'For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you will be cultivated and sown.
10. 'I will multiply men on you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities will be inhabited and the waste places will be rebuilt.
11. 'I will multiply on you man and beast; and they will increase and be fruitful; and I will cause you to be inhabited as you were formerly and will treat you better than at the first. Thus you will know that I am the LORD.
12. 'Yes, I will cause men--My people Israel--to walk on you and possess you, so that you will become their inheritance and never again bereave them of children.'
13. "Thus says the Lord GOD, 'Because they say to you, "You are a devourer of men and have bereaved your nation of children,"
14. therefore you will no longer devour men and no longer bereave your nation of children,' declares the Lord GOD.

Every time God judged Israel in the Old Testament, by subjecting them to conquest and rule by another nation, he subsequently judged that nation as well, after the people repented and called on his name.

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15. "I will not let you hear insults from the nations anymore, nor will you bear disgrace from the peoples any longer, nor will you cause your nation to stumble any longer," declares the Lord GOD.' "

This was not fulfilled by anything but the coming of the New Covenant age.

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NAS Ezekiel 36:22-32
22. "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
23. "I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
24. "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
25. "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26. "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28. "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
29. "Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
30. "I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations.
31. "Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations.
32. "I am not doing {this} for your sake," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"

Again, only the change of Covenant could see this fulfilled.

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NAS Ezekiel 37:1
Vision of the Valley of Dry Bones
1. The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones.

Restoration prophecy. Remember covenant context.

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NAS Romans 11:33
33. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

No preterist has a problem with this!

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NAS Ephesians 2:7
7. so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Isn’t He doing that right now?

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NAS Acts 1:11
11. They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

And he did come back in the clouds of heaven, in the glory of his Father, just as he and the angel promised! To understand this, all you have to do is study the OT cloud comings of God.

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NAS Isaiah 11:10
10. Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious.

And they have, and it is!

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NAS Isaiah 10:24-25
24. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD of hosts, "O My people who dwell in Zion, do not fear the Assyrian who strikes you with the rod and lifts up his staff against you, the way Egypt {did.}
25. "For in a very little while My indignation {against you} will be spent and My anger {will be directed} to their destruction."
26. The LORD of hosts will arouse a scourge against him like the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb; and His staff will be over the sea and He will lift it up the way {He did} in Egypt.
27. So it will be in that day, that his burden will be removed from your shoulders and his yoke from your neck, and the yoke will be broken because of fatness.

Context is Assyrian captivity.

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NAS Isaiah 11:1-16
1. Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
3. And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;
4. But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
5. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist.
6. And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them.
7. Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8. The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den.
9. They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.
10. Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will
stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious.

In prophetic symbolism, animals represented various nations. Under the New Covenant, people from all over the world live at peace with God and with each other. The curse of enmity is over.

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The Restored Remnant
11. Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea.
12. And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
13. Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, And those who harass Judah will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, And Judah will not harass Ephraim.
14. They will swoop down on the slopes of the Philistines on the west; Together they will plunder the sons of the east; They will possess Edom and Moab, And the sons of Ammon will be subject to them.
15. And the LORD will utterly destroy The tongue of the Sea of Egypt; And He will wave His hand over the River With His scorching wind; And He will strike it into seven streams And make {men} walk over dry-shod.
16. And there will be a highway from Assyria For the remnant of His people who will be left, Just as there was for Israel In the day that they came up out of the land of Egypt.

The New Covenant restoration was foreshadowed by the restoration from the Babylonian captivity.


Thanks for the challenge,
And blessings to you, frog!
- mouse

[countrymouse]

Addendum:

In my opinion, and this is not intended to be an insult to anyone, the futurist falls into the ancient trap of hoping for utopia on earth. I completely understand this: Wouldn't it be wonderful if the world were free from disease, disaster, poverty, prejudice, war, murder, and all the other things we deplore.

And, God could have chosen to have it that way. But he apparently didn't.

There are those pesky references to nations outside the New Jerusalem, who are healed by the leaves of the tree of life, who walk by the light of the New Jerusalem, bringing their honor and glory into it. The Bible simply does not speak of a time when the covenant community will be the only human beings on earth.

[Odyssey]

Hello.

I will do my best to answer some of these statement/questions.

But they cannot explain sufficiently to me Matt 23.39; Luke 21.24; Acts 1.6; Romans 8:18-25; 11:11-12, 15, 25-27; 15:8-12. There is an age to come in which all the prophecies to Israel will be realized fully (Eze 36.6-15, 22-32, note also the allusion of Romans 11:15 to Eze. 37), and we Gentiles have spiritually and prematurely (before Israel) entered into the wonder of the wisdom and knowledge of God (Rom 11:33), that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus (Eph 2.7). There is no emphasis in the NT concerning how or when this will be brought about (Acts 1.7) other than at His coming, but the fact that it will be brought about is nevertheless certain (Acts 1.11).

Concerning the first set of verses (Matt 23.39; Luke 21.24; Acts 1.6; Romans 8:18-25; 11:11-12, 15, 25-27; 15:8-12):

Matt. 23.39. ' "For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' " ' First, this verse can't be separated from its' context. That is, it is tied to chapters 23-35. In everyone of those chapters, Jesus clearly tied his coming to his generation (23.36; 24.34; and all the uses of the personal pronoun 'you'). In the verse under study, Jesus used the term 'you' three times. There was no way those listening to him would have understood him to mean 'the Jewish people' throughout time. They would have understood, and rightly so, that he was addressing them and their contemporaries.

Luke 21.24. ‘and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.’ Here again, a verse is taken from it’s immediate context and forced into a present day understanding. While speaking to the disciples regarding ‘[W]hen therefore will these things be (the destruction of the temple)? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place,’ Jesus said, ‘But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are in the midst of the city depart, and let not those who are in the country enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people, and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near’ (21.20-28). Then he told them a parable, ‘Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. Even so you, too, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place’ (vv. 29-32). Notice again the context. Jesus was speaking to the disciples about things that they would witness: ‘But when you (the disciples) see…’ He said that they would witness the destruction of Jerusalem (v. 20), the ‘signs in sun and moon and stars’ (v. 25), the ‘Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory’ (v. 27), and their ‘redemption…drawing near’ (v. 28). He then re-emphasized that they would see those things: ‘Even so you (the disciples), too, when you see these happening…’ (v. 31) and that their generation would not pass away ‘until all takes place’ (v. 32). Furthermore, he told them that they would witness the fulfillment of ‘all things’ (v. 22). Unless we have no regard for the plain words of our Lord, there is no way we can stretch this into our time.

Acts 1.6. ‘And so when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" ’ The only thing this shows us is that the disciples were still caught up in the restoration of natural Israel. They could not yet comprehend that ‘Israel’ was something greater. However, after the outpouring of the Spirit, they began to see that the ‘Israel of God’ consisted of both classes of people, i.e., Jews and Gentiles.

Concerning the ‘age to come’: Jesus mentioned the ‘age to come’ the synoptic gospels:

Matthew 12.32. ‘ "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come.” ’
Mark 10.30. ‘ “…but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.” ’
Luke 18.30. ‘ “…who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.” ’

From this we need to ask, ‘In what age was Jesus living?’ He was living under the OC age. The ‘age to come’ referred to the NC age. There is no other ‘age to come’ mentioned in Scripture.

Concerning the consummation of these things at the ‘coming’ of Jesus: Preterists completely agree! However, we put those things within the rightful place of fulfillment—within the lifetime of Jesus’ contemporaries.

Concerning the ‘time statements’: This is how preterists view them, i.e., within the context of the whole counsel of Scripture. No other time, except for the Second Coming, are the time statements placed in an ‘elastic state.’ That is, as we have maintained over and over again, ever time god gave people time statements regarding fulfillment of his word, unless otherwise stated, the natural, human understanding of those things are meant.

Lastly, concerning the whole camera example: I have heard this used by many different dispensationalists. The problem is that it is founded on a false premise. That is, it is founded on the idea that Jesus was referring to different events in Matthew 24 but jumbled them all together. What looked close to the disciples was actually an event thousands of years in their future. The problem here is that there is an unspoken understanding that Jesus can’t speak clearly to his people! They asked him specific questions about things they would witness, but he talked about other things and then put them altogether.

The disciples asked very specific questions and Jesus answered them with amazing clarity, ‘When you see these things…’ It is the Christian today that cannot accept the words of their Savior. The disciples did. They taught all of the first century churches that He was coming within their lifetime. What we have to do is accept those things and then figure out the ramifications of those things.

Grace to you,

od

[Brandan Kraft]

Thank you friends.... my eschatological search is moving, and I keep finding myself being drawn toward *gasp* complete preterism. But I am very reluctant to embrace it as eagerly as you have.

Please, pray for me as I continue my eschatological studies which I've neglected while God has straigtened out my soteriology and ecclesiology.

[Odyssey]

Big K,

Cool. I will continue to pray for you. However, my move to Covenant Eschatology wasn't an easy one by any stretch of the imagination! I will never forget sitting in the living room of a very dear friend of mine weeping. I realized that I would have to deal with my wife dying. That was when I realized how much eschatology has a hold on a Christians world view whether they know it or not. I thought that we would be 'raptured' and not have to deal with any of that stuff. But, when faced with reality of Scripture, I found my life wanting in so many areas.

Also, I don't care what anyone tells you, soteriology is wrapped up in eschatology and vice versa. As I have shown before, Peter believed that at the parousia the faithful would 'obtain as the outcome of [their] faith the salvation of [their] souls' (1Pet. 1.9). And, as I tried to show before with an examination of Lev. 16, the parousia of Christ would prove the forgiveness of the people of god. If we are still waiting, we don't know if we have been forgiven or not.

Keep up the study and if you have any questions at all, please don't hesitate to ask!

Grace to you my brother,

jak

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by Odyssey
Big K,

Cool. I will continue to pray for you. However, my move to Covenant Eschatology wasn't an easy one by any stretch of the imagination! I will never forget sitting in the living room of a very dear friend of mine weeping. I realized that I would have to deal with my wife dying. That was when I realized how much eschatology has a hold on a Christians world view whether they know it or not. I thought that we would be 'raptured' and not have to deal with any of that stuff. But, when faced with reality of Scripture, I found my life wanting in so many areas.

Oh, I remember those days of rapturitis. Hmmm, they weren't but a few years ago for me.

Also, I don't care what anyone tells you, soteriology is wrapped up in eschatology and vice versa.

I would agree with you here. I don't really believe you can separate soteriology from ecclesiology or eschatology or any other "ology" for that matter.

Keep up the study and if you have any questions at all, please don't hesitate to ask!

It's been so nice to be able to pick your brains! It's a real pleasure.

Brandan

[Brandan Kraft]

Here is another question....

Eph 2:5-6, (NAS), even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

I believe I am seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus, yet I am still sitting in front of this computer which perishes with time. It's an amazing paradox that I don't quite understand.

Also, if Paul is referring to our spiritual resurrection, how can there be a future resurrection if it is not physical? -- As the Spiritual seems to have taken place at Christ's resurrection and ascention.

[Odyssey]

Kermie,

This is a passage that scholars call 'the now but not yet.' That is, we have one passage that states, 'we...are seated with [Christ] in the heavens' while another passage states, 'salvation is nearer to us than when we believed' (Rom. 13.11). Another example of this is where Jesus stated, 'Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out' (John 12.13) and '...the prince of this world is judged' (John 16.11). We know that 'the prince of this world' was a reference to 'Satan' or the 'devil.' However, Paul wrote, 'And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly' (Rom. 16.20) and Peter wrote, 'Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour' (1Pet. 5.8). So what is my point?

My point is this: The cross was the determining factor of judgment againt Israel and 'Satan.' However, there were still things that had to be carried out within the natural realm. So, to all natural appearances, 'Satan' and OC Judaism were still if full swing. Just as the OC was completely abolished at the cross and yet the write of Hebrews wrote, 'When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear' (8.13). This has to do with the New Exodus that the church was then going through. At that time, just like during OC Israel's exodus, there was the element of the 'now and the not yet.' Israel had been delivered from the physcial bondage of Israel but was not delivered from the spiritual implications of that bondage until after the wilderness waunderings. It is the same thing here. Yes, Christ had purchased salvation for the people of god, but that wouldn't be realized until his parousia (presense) or return.

Paul was writing about things that, in the scheme of things, were realities. But, in the natural realm, they could not be seen. But Paul's encouragment was for them to 'look at things above' and 'walk by faith' until those things were realized within the physical realm.

Also, this is why we see salvation as a 'conditional' thing in the NT. That is, we see things like 'IF you continue in faith...' etc. This relates to that whole exodus thing. If they did not continue, they were never really Christians anyway (1John 2.19). They would be like those who died in the wilderness. Only those who continued to believe until the end would 'be saved.' Till the end of what? The end of the age. At that point, the High Priest would return and prove that god had accepted the sacrifice and the people were indeed forgiven of their sins and 'saved' and adopted into the family of god. Again, that is why the timing of the Second Coming is important.

I hope that helped.

Grace to you,

jak