My thoughts on Baptism in the Spirit

[Brandan Kraft]

Here are some quick thoughts concerning what I believe about "Baptism in the Spirit."

I don't want to go into great lengths, but it's a position I haven't seen elsewhere (maybe I haven't looked hard enough).

First of all, I believe all believers have been baptized in the Spirit:

1 Cor 12:13, (NAS), For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

However, I also believe most "charismatics and pentecostals" contain a piece of the truth, but are incorrect in their application of it.

There are several examples of baptism in the Spirit in scripture, but I like the account of the apostle Paul the best.

(Acts 22:6-10)

"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me. 'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. 'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.'"

Man in his unregenerate state is TOTALLY DEPRAVED and INCAPABLE of having ANY relationship with God. Yet here, Jesus initiates the relationship with Saul, and I believe Saul is a regenerate believer at this point talking to God.

So Paul was converted to Christianity when he saw and spoke to the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus.

But it wasn't until three (3) days later (Acts 9:9) that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit when Ananias laid hands on him.

"Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "BROTHER Saul, the Lord--Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized" (Acts 9:17-18)

Notice that Annanias calls Saul BROTHER Saul. Then Saul is filled with the Holy Spirit....

How do I harmonize this separate event (and other examples) with the belief that all believers are baptized in the Holy Spirit? Well, as I stated earlier, the pentecostals are right in that baptism in the Spirit is a separate event. But I submit to you that just as conversion comes immediately after regeneration, baptism in the spirit comes immediately after conversion; and in most cases, so closely that even though they are separate and distinct events, we with natural minds naturally treat it as a singular event.

Those are just my thoughts on the subject. Thanks for your charity

[Debbiek]

NIce going Kermie but there's not a pentecostal thats' going to agree with you. Firstly, they don;t even want to hear about tthat verse because Paul didnt speak in tongues.
You are right though, in that debbie agrees with you. lol. But Pentecostals believe that the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is a supernatural manifestation which a person feels physically in their body, evidenced by speaking in tongues. SO don't tell them about your verse.lol. Although they may admit (Andrew wouldn't), that they Holy Spirit dwells in a believer at the time of conversion, they claim that the "baptism of the Holy SPirit" is required for salvation and is usually accompanied by speaking in tongues. Now without being rude, in all love, 2 people who used to frequent this site who held to that belief, both claimed in this site they were troubled by demons when they slept. I think that is evidence of false doctrine.
So you are right kermie, just define "baptism of the Holy Spirit".

[Debbiek]

The "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is a term which is associated with much confusion & animosity. I have found one truth in the matter. Just as we recieve Jesus Christ by faith, thru grace, we must also recieve the Holy Spirit by faith. Seeking any other way than thru Christ by Faith is dangerous. Seeking a supernatural event is dangerous, for if that is what you really want, you will surely get it, it just may not be from God. Now if when you recieve the Holy Spirit you are in prayer, it would be from God. But what if you are asleep? ah ha! We better make sure that we are not seeking a supernatural event more than we are seeking God.

[countrymouse]

Preach it, sister!

cm

[Brandan Kraft]

Well said Debbie!!!

[Debbiek]

Gee thanks.That's not the ususal response I get. lol.

[HIS]

Hello Kermie,

Interesting post...

Do you feel that the terms "baptism in the Spirit" and "born of the Spirit" have separate meanings / applications or do they represent the same thing?

[Brandan Kraft]

They have different meanings, but essentially, the application is the same.

[wayne0214]

Debbiek; The following is in part, the Holy Spirit's ministry: (John 16:7-15), (vs 13): "But when He, the Spirit of truth comes. He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come". (14) He shall glorify Me (Jesus)

(1)the Holy Spirit is a guide to all truth. (2) He will not speak on His own behalf or initiative, but reflects what He hears from God. (3) He is the Spirit of prophesy (4) he shall give honor only to the Father and the Son.

'Wondering what spirit the Charismatics are indulging?

[Debbiek]

Currently they are adhering to the spirit of "peace & prosperity" shown on tbn daily by the wof movement. Jeremiah 23 examines the peace & properity prophets as "false prophets", not to indicate any one such by name today.
Peace & prosperity are for God's people, but so is discipleship and preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. No balance today as in Jer.23.
On the other hand, I am not a cesscationist. I believe the gifts are active today. BUt the way in which one attains a gift by "revelling" or "let go & let God" is not a safe way to attain a gift from God. By faith will I recieve gifts, just as I recieved Christ by faith. So yes, when someone tells me they have a spritual gift, I would like to know HOW they attained it. Were they asleep? Were they a blank slate in their mind? etc. There are counterfeit gifts.

[HIS]

Originally posted by kermie
They have different meanings, but essentially, the application is the same.

Kermie...You use the words "different" and "same" in the same sentence.

If I may ask: What is different about them (relative to the meaning) and what is the application your are referring to.

thanks,
HIS

[Apple]

I just read a comment by Debby, that's interesting. "they were troubled by demons when they slept. I think that is evidence of false doctrine."
Are you sure that's true?
Seems like maybe those demons just didn't like Spirit-filled Christians. I mean, isn't there some teaching in Ephesians about how to handle yourself in such matters. The putting on of this and that, to battle Powers and Principalities, not of this world, and so on.
It would seem to me, those two Christians you refer to, were very un-hip to Spiritual savvy. Specifically, warfare.
I don't want to say bad things about belivers, but, I've noticed the Pentacostals tend to restrain the growth of members, who would otherwise develop into real Fireballs.

[Debbiek]

Steve, can you be more specific? These folks were Pentecostal. I agree that they may have been unknowledgable about spiritual warfare, but they also claim to be the most spiritual of all denominations, so how does their denomination prevent them from being real fireballs?
Question # 2- If they say that demons bother them in their sleep, what am I to think when they claim the Holy Spirit infilled them while they were asleep, thus waking them up "in the Spirit"? HOw do they know the difference? Doesn't satan mimic the infilling of the Holy Spirit? If they never recieved the infilling or Baptism of the Holy SPirit before, & know nothing of spiritual warfare, how would they know that what they recieved when they were asleep was of God?
When people tell me they have gifts of the spirit, I want to know if they got it first when they were asleep.
I guess what I am saying is this: I don't believe that if a person who has been praying for sometime for the infilling or Baptism of the Holy SPirit would recieve it while they were asleep.I believe they would recieve it while they were awake the 1st time. I have no scripture to say"The Holy Spirit will not Baptise you(or infill you) for the 1st time while you are asleep", but I believe it.
I have no scripture

[Apple]

Debbie,
Got your reply. Since I'm new to this Forum, I hope I post this reply correctly.
I must say, talking about the things of the Spirit on a message board, is new to me. I've been on AOL and Compuserve Forums, and I would Never put out intimate or precious Godly pearls for a bunch of God-hating, anti-Christian atheists, to rip apart. I only argued the most superficial issues on those forums.
This Forum seems to protect Christian seekers. So now I get to say what I want for a change.
I never heard of of being "filled with The Holy Spirt" in your sleep. That's nowhere in the Bible. Furthermore, it's the opposite of how The Holy Spirit relates to us.
John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,"
John 16:13-14 "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth..." "...He shall glorify me..."
The Holy Spirit-filled experience, is very awake, alert, teaches, improves your memory, reveals truth, glorifies Christ. Totally the opposite of a "dream-state."
I'm not even sure if the Demon thing was all that real. A lot of people love to blame the devil for eveything. Pentecostals, in my opinion, overdo it with the devil teachings.
Speaking of Pentecostals. Of course they say they are the most spiritual, who dosen't. You ever hear of a denomination say, "We are not very Spiritual." But, they are the most emotional bunch of belivers I ever saw. Here in Georgia, in the rural areas, we have "Snake-handlers," who drink poision in their services. You know why? They say, it forces them to get right with God before Sunday services. Well, I don't call that very Spiritual. By the way, they get bit a lot and wind up in the Emergency Room.
So what is the Church that is set up to develope fireballs? Where Christ is the cornerstone, then Apostles, prophets, teachers, 1 Corinthians 12:28. Have you heard of denominations, Pentecostals, for instance, where deacons hire and fire pastors, and don't believe in Apostles in these times at all? How can a ministry develope the leading of the Spirit, when Church hierarchy and traditions are set in stone. An elder or pastor gets a revelation of new direction in the church, and he's fired.
Recieving the Holy Spirit is pretty simple, and knowing you are filled is even more simple. First, all you have to do is ask with a simple prayer, and thats it. Second, you change. Scripture that never brought tears to your eyes, now bring tears to your eyes. It used to be a "concept" thing to say, the Bible was written by men led by the Spirit. But now, it all makes perfect sense. Of course God was speaking directly through his servents, I can now feel, and know, that truth. Try to explain zero-gravity to someone who is not in space?
There are many many scriptures on the Holy Spirit, I only lited two.
Go to GOOGLE.com, the fastest search engine ever. Type in "Holy Spirit baptism" and you will get one million websites, some of which are really good studies.
Thank you for replying to me.

[Debbiek]

Hi Steve & welcome. Yeah occasionally a real jerk shows up in here but eventually they get banned.
The people I was referring to were in disagreement with us. Christ was not their cornerstone, "signs & wonders" were their cornerstone, specifically, "tongues".
People who have CHrist as their cornerstone are considered less spiritual today, especially if they have no "signs & wonders".
There is a new one going around now called"laughing in the spirit". I don't recall Jesus doing that, & i would have to walk out during church if someone started laughing at the preacher.
I saw some of those snake handlers/poison drinkers on tv, & didnt hear them say a word about Christ.
The churches just pick out a favorite verse anymore, & live by it totally. Glad to have a good church near home.
Debbie

[HIS]

Originally posted by kermie
Man in his unregenerate state is TOTALLY DEPRAVED and INCAPABLE of having ANY relationship with God. Yet here, Jesus initiates the relationship with Saul, and I believe Saul is a regenerate believer at this point talking to God.

Kermie...I haven't read this posting for a while, but I just did and have another question.

Based on your logic or belief statement above, how do you reconcile the fact that Jesus (who you will agree is God) initiated many conversations (which you seem to be defining as "relationships") with those in the books of Matt, Mark, Luke, and John...Yet, many of these people you would not say were in a "regenerated" state simply because God spoke to them and told them what they ought to do?

And what of the OT passages when God spoke to various people?

**********

The reason Ananias called Saul (Paul) "brother" was because Jesus told him that Saul was a "chosen" vessel (foreordained) by God.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel.

Does this mean he had been "born of the Spirit" prior to Ananias laying hands on him?

Please advise...

[PastorChazz]

Kermie, you cited Paul and his conversion experience on the road to Damascus. Then you cited he was cited baptized in the Holy Spirit three days later. Then ... you conclude that the salvation experience and the baptism in the Holy Spirit happen in believers virtually simultaneously that they can't distinguish the difference. The scripture you cite would lead one to believe that some time (in this case, three days) passes between the two experiences.

Next, most here seem to lump all "pentecostals" into one group with the same doctrine, this is an incorrect assumption.

Next, not all "pentecostals" believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a "physical manifestation." I, personally believe that THE evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is power to be a witness (Acts 1:8). Yes, speaking in tongues is an evidence as well, but certainly not the only evidence. However, I do believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is received by grace.

Next, debbiek stated "Seeking a supernatural event is dangerous" I would disagree with that statement ... as does scripture. In 1 Corinthians 12:31 we read "But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way." Also, try 1 Corinthians 14:1, "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy." It is amazing to me that people avoid seeking spiritual gifts because they are more afraid they will get a counterfeit that that God will give them the real thing (Debbiek, "for if that is what you really want, you will surely get it, it just may not be from God."). Seems to me Scripture addresses this objection as well, Matthew 7:7-11.

Lastly, I prefer to form my opinions on this subject on what Scripture says, not on the over-generalization of a a specific group of believers. Also, I find that believers miss out on the movement of the Spirit more from fear of being deceived than from false doctrine. Just some thoughts.

[Brandan Kraft]

Friends, I put this subject on the back burner a little while ago, and well it's back again it seems. Give me a little time to collect my thoughts and I will respond

A Brother in Christ,
Brandan

[ProphetesGlynis]

FATHER GOD in the name of JESUS CHRIST, we thank YOU for the truth of the baptism of the HOLY GHOST. Amen.

Debbiek:
I read your posts, but there is ONLY one problem that I see. You post without supporting your statements with BIBLE (King James Version) scriptures to back up your "opinions."

Later after Paul was baptized in the HOLY SPIRIT, Paul told the people that he spake with tongues basically more than everyone else. Paul definitely stated that he would that everyone spake in tongues, too. Paul also cautioned people to forbid not to speak with tongues. It is obvious that Paul experienced speaking with tongues subsequent to his salvation experience. Evidence of speaking in tongues after the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT fills someone up is not just a Pentecostal thing, it is a BIBLE thing. And by the way, I am not from the Pentecostal denomination; however, I do have the day of Pentecost experience.

Here is a VERY basic teaching that I do to explain the baptism of the gift of HOLY GHOST with the sign of speaking in "new" tongues. Praise the LORD! I am glad that you asked this question...Kermie.

Receiving the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST is MANDATORY unto salvation and not optional:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
-Acts 2:38

The message of salvation entails what people call the "TRINITY," the FATHER, SON [JESUS], AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

It is simple. You must first repent of your sins with your mouth and accept that JESUS CHRIST died on the cross and rose again for you. Next you must pray and asked GOD to fill you with the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. Lastly, when you accept Jesus with your mouth and believe in your heart; ask for the HOLY GHOST and HE fills you up; then the HOLY GHOST, after you die, will lead you to GOD in heaven (and to Jesus who sits on the right hand of the FATHER).

Yes, the Bible dictates that if you confess with your mouth the Lord JESUS CHRIST you "shall" be saved (Romans 10: 9-10). The phrase "shall be" lets you know that this is something that shall come to you if you fulfill ALL of the stipulations. "Shall be" signifies that this is something to come in the future.

For example, Elementary School, Junior High School, and High School. You will not get your diploma until you meet ALL OF THE BASIC REQUIREMENTS by passing those grades. JESUS (Elementary School) is the step to receiving the HOLY GHOST (Junior High School) who will take us to GOD in heaven (High School diploma).


If you confess with your mouth JESUS CHRIST this is the first step to salvation commitment. You may also receive water baptism. If you would look at the definition for confess, it means to be willing to turn from sin (fault).

CONFESS (DEFITION FROM WEBSTER) - to tell or make know as something wrong or damaging to oneself; admit; to acknowledge sin to GOD; to declare faith in or adherence to; to disclose ones faults; to unburden ones sins...to GOD.

At least you took the first step. Quite a few people do not believe that JESUS is the MESSIAH and will not confess that JESUS died on the cross for their sins with their mouth. If they do not accept JESUS, they will not go to heaven.

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
- II John 9

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"
- I Timothy 2:5

A lot of confusion comes in when people ignorantly believe that there is ONLY one type of tongues. There is A). the gift of speaking in tongues and B). when you receive the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST it comes with a sign of speaking in "NEW" tongues, as well.

Some churches get confused because they preach only about the GIFT OF TONGUES. They will tell people that EVERYBODY who is SAVED, does not speak in tongues. This is in error. Everybody may not possess the GIFT OF TONGUES, but everybody who receives the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST will speak in a "NEW" tongue as the HOLY GHOST is filling him/her with HIS SPIRIT and as the HOLY SPIRIT gives the person his/her utterance.

"And THESE SIGNS shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with NEW TONGUES."
- Mark chapter 16: 17

"I would that ye all spake with tongues,"
- I Corinthians 14: 5

"And they were all FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST AND BEGAN TO SPEAK WITH OTHER TONGUES AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE."
Acts 2: 4

There is more than ONE type of speaking in tongues. It seems quite a few people harp on only the "gift of tongues," and forget that receiving the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST comes with speaking in tongues, too. It is simply an outward sign so that a person, like yourself, won't ASSUME he/she is Spirit-filled without any outward sign from GOD. Contrary to what people believe, the baptism of the gift of the HOLY GHOSt/SPIRIT does come with the "SIGN" of tongues...per GOD!!

The tongues are simply a sign to the unbeliever that the HOLY GHOST filled him/her. So that when someone's asks you are you saved and filled with the HOLY GHOST, you won't have to guess...you will know for sure because you will have personally experienced the outward sign of speaking in tongues manifestation (I Corinthians 14: 22).

The statements doesn't focus on the GIFT OF TONGUES, but on the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. Since EVERYONE MUST HAVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST TO MAKE IT TO HEAVEN; everyone who receives this gift will speak in tongues.

Even JESUS HIMSELF needed to be filled with the HOLY SPIRIT (Luke 3: 22). JESUS now is sitting on the right hand of the FATHER and JESUS left the HOLY SPIRIT here on the earth for us. The Bible states that if you want to receive the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT (GHOST), you must ask for it (Luke 11: 13). Contrary to what some people believe, you must ask GOD for the HOLY SPIRIT and GOD gives it ONLY to them that obey HIM. That's why a lot of people do not have the HOLY GHOST because they prefer not to obey GOD (sin in their lives; Acts 5: 32).

In Acts 19 Paul asked the disciples did they receive the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT since they believe in JESUS [and after water baptism] and they, like others, hadn't even heard this teaching.

Now that everyone understands, please pray to receive the gift of the HOLY GHOST. When GOD fills you with the gift of the HOLY GHOST, YOU will experience a speaking in tongues sign. Study the Bible for yourself and go to GOD in prayer and ask HIM. You have nothing to lose:

FATHER GOD IN THE NAME OF JESUS, I CONFESS MY SINS. I BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN FOR ME. PLEASE FILL ME WITH THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (GHOST) BY FAITH IN JESUS NAME. AMEN.

[Alan Stevens]

Hi,

This is an interesting one, and as a Charismatic, i must say i believe their is such a thing as 'baptism of the spirit'.
However i do NOT believe it is Mandatory to salvation.

The Theif on the cross, was obviously not baptised in the Holy spririt, but He was assured of his salvation.

The passage below from ACTs 19 is one to look at.

Acts 19:1-41, (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Verse 2 Have you received the holy Ghost since you believed.?

Would these Christains have gone to Hell if they died before receiveing the Holy Ghost, i think NOT.

Salvation is by grace, through faith. We are Justified by our Faith.

We have to be very careful NOT to devalue Christs Death's work by adding certain clauses to justify doctrine.

Saying the the Holy Spirit is Mandatory to salvation is as bad as saying the Law is now to be Kept in Full.

The great forefathers of our fairh, Calvin, Luther, Spurgeon were all NOT baptised in the spirit but would you say they were not Christians.

Cheers