Jesus' resurrection was not in a 'glorified' body!

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by Odyssey
What about our resurrection? What kind of body will it be?

Hi Jak, your question presupposes the resurrection will take place in the future. I thought you didn't believe that..???

Brandan

[Odyssey]

Brandan,

Yes I believe that Jesus' body was his physical body. The exact same one he was buried with. That was the purpose. He could show others that it was the same and he was the same and not a 'ghost' as the disciples thought.

Concerning my belief in our resurrection: My question does not presuppose anything. It was given to make us think. I am reading a really good article on the 'Resurrection at death' theory. Until now, I have always been one to believe that we have our resurrection now. That is, based on Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 15:

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am still not settled on the RAD theory. It seems clear from this passage that Paul tied the resurrection with the passing away of the OC. Which, of course, took place in AD 70. This would leave me to believe that resurrection is tied to soteriology and that the two are related and that they were both completed then.

As a side note, this whole chapter refutes a physical resurrection because of the setting. Paul is only addressing the resurrection of the elect and not the non-elect. 'Adam' is not representing the first physical body created no more than Christ is representing the 'last' physcial body created. There is more to it than just a physcial body. Besides, if Paul was proporting a physical resurrection, he could have just plainly stated such. Since he didn't, it seems there is more to this than most futurists would have us believe.

Grace to you,

jak

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by Odyssey
Yes I believe that Jesus' body was his physical body. The exact same one he was buried with.

OK, I've been thinking on this a bit more. Here comes another question, so please bear with me...

If Jesus' resurrection was in His physical body, shouldn't we expect our resurrection to be identical in nature as well? In other words, we should expect to be resurrected in a physical body.

According to complete preterism, the resurrection took place at 70 ad. If the resurrection has already taken place, should we expect their bodies to have risen from the dead as well (assuming that a believers resurrection is identical to Jesus')?

Thanks for your correspondence

Brandan

[Odyssey]

Kermie,

Jesus physical body was the exact same body as he was crucified with. That is, it still had the same marks of death; the 'holes' in his hands and feet, the wound in his side, the wounds on his back and head. This was done so (i.e., the same body) it could be used as evidence to the disciples that it was the same person and not an imposter or a ghost. If we have the exact same type of resurrection, first of all, most of us see decay and I can find nothing in Scripture that even suggests that god reconstructs ashes and dust! I am not stating that he cant'; I just don't see it in Scripture (appart from Ezekiel, of course).

With that stated, if we were to have the exact same bodies, some of us die horrible deaths (car wrecks, shark attacks, murders, etc.) how will those bodies look?

Furthermore, John wrote that he didn't know how we will 'look': if it was to be the same physical body like that of Jesus, it seems pretty obvious that he would have known. He wrote:

'Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.' (1 John 3.2)

Grace to you,

jak

[Brandan Kraft]

Well, by george! That's pretty remarkable that I've never paid any attention to that verse before. Thanks for pointing that out!

'Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.' (1 John 3.2)

Quick question for you Jak, have you seen Him just as He is?

[Odyssey]

Every Christian has! We 'see' him as the only begotten of god!

Grace to you,

jak

[Brandan Kraft]

But didn't John "see" Him like you and I do when he wrote this?

[Brandan Kraft]

Also you wrote:

Jesus physical body was the exact same body as he was crucified with. That is, it still had the same marks of death; the 'holes' in his hands and feet, the wound in his side, the wounds on his back and head. This was done so (i.e., the same body) it could be used as evidence to the disciples that it was the same person and not an imposter or a ghost.

Hmmm, are you sure this is the SOLE reason Jesus was raised in a physical body?

Brandan

[Odyssey]

Kermie,

Concering John 'seeing' Jesus: Well, considering the fact that 'seeing' can be understood as 'understanding' or 'perceiveing' or 'comprehending' I think that would be what John was referring to. However, he could have 'seen' Jesus in a glorified state. Paul did. Steven did. Even the disciples in Acts did. And I still think that every Christian would fall into that category. We all 'see' Jesus glorified, don't we? We 'see' him as the 'King of Kings' but we don't 'see' him in the natural realm. Jesus said:

'Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.' Mark 9.1

But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9.27

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3.3

However, at the same time, he also said:

'To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, in order that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.' Luke 8.10

'The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, "Look, here it is!" or, "There it is!" For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst (or 'within you').' Luke 17.20-21

Concerning the 'sole' reason for Jesus resurrection body: Could be. I am not positive. I do know that the Scripture states:

'But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." ' Luke 24.37-39.

So it seems that one of the reasons was to show positively that he was the same person.

Grace to you,

jak

[Brandan Kraft]

Ok, I'm going to come back to this one again.

1. Jesus had a physical body.
2. Do you believe it "changed" when He ascended to heaven? I see no reason for it to.
3. I believe our body will be like Jesus' body.

Phil 3:21, (NAS), who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

[countrymouse]

I think it is necessary to take 1 Corinthians 15 into consideration in order to understand this issue:

NAS 1 Corinthians 15:35
35. But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"

NAS 1 Corinthians 15:44
44. it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual {body.}

NAS 1 Corinthians 15:50
50. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

The contrast is between natural and spiritual. Resurrected bodies are not natural, they are spiritual. Yes, Jesus' body did not see corruption, and his grave was empty. With the exceptions of Enoch and Elijah, and perhaps Lazarus, everyone else's natural bodies have seen corruption.

I have to conclude that Jesus' natural body was simultaneously raised and transformed. The transformation of his body would not have kept him from displaying his wounds or eating food. Angels ate food with Abraham. Jesus appeared after his resurrection only to those whom he chose, and even then was not recognized until he wished to be.

The question, then, becomes this: Does God have to raise our natural bodies as well (from all over the place, in some cases), or has he prepared spiritual bodies for us that are independent of our natural bodies?

And the overriding question still remains: In which age are we living, the Old Covenant age or the New Covenant age of the Messianic Kingdom, that could not be inherited by flesh and blood? We can't have it both ways! Either the Kingdom of Heaven came, or it didn't. It didn't "sort of" come, so that it needs to finish coming. The old Jerusalem was entirely removed; where is the New Jerusalem? Still waiting in Heaven? Still on its way down to earth? If it isn't here/didn't come, we have no city, and we are not a people. We are scattered and homeless. Would God have left us that way for 2,000 years?

Blessings
cm

[Brandan Kraft]

Phil 3:21, (NAS), who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Here, it says our body will be transformed into. Those are key words in my opinion.

[countrymouse]

NAS Philippians 3:20-21
20. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21. who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Hmmm...

That begs another question: What did Paul mean by "the body of our humble state" and "the body of his glory?"

Paul said Christ would accomplish this "by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things unto Himself." He also said that they eagerly awaited a Savior (Jesus) from heaven. They still needed to be saved from something. Jesus was to come again not in regard to sin, but to deliver his people from something else. What was it?

Is this passage about transformation of individual, natural bodies into spiritual bodies, or is it about Jesus delivering his people from bondage and giving them eternal victory by crushing their enemy?

Blessings,
cm

[stauron]

Good question kermie!

In the verse it seems possible that body is refering to citizenship from the verse above. Which would then fit in with what cm was saying.

I don't know, just a thought.

What do you all think?

stauron

[countrymouse]

I think we have to remember to put on first-century sandals when we read the New Testament. We have to remember neither the writers nor the readers of the epistles were the thorough-going individualists that we are! All the events related to the coming of the Son of Man were viewed primarily as corporate events, happening to the people of God as a group. That is not to deny the responsibility of every individual in regard to belief, but we need to be aware of some of the problems we naturally have when we read Scripture.

I think what we really have to focus on is the gospel, the "good news" that Jesus and John the Baptist came preaching, and that Jesus sent out the apostles to preach. It wasn't the good news that "now you can go to heaven when you die." It was the gospel of the kingdom of heaven, which was about to come. Our job regarding eschatology is to determine the Scriptural time frame for complete fulfillment, and to find out what events were inseparably associated with the coming of the kingdom, according to Scripture.

We have to adjust our traditional views of issues such as the judgment and resurrection accordingly.

In my opinion!
cm

[Brandan Kraft]

OK, I'm back!

Here is another passage that might help shed some light on this subject...

Mt 27:51-53, (NAS), And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. (52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; (53) and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Were these bodies not physical? Can't we presume our resurrection will be like the resurrection of these saints?

What are your thoughts?

[Odyssey]

I hope not! Those people all died a physical death again!

jak

[Brandan Kraft]

Jak, maybe I'm ignorant or something, but where does Scripture state that?

[Odyssey]

It doesn't 'say' it, but it is implied. Jesus is called the 'first born' from the dead. However, there were numerous others that were resurrected before him. Therefore, there must have been something special about his resurrection. Also, did Lazarus live forever after his resurrection?

Just my thoughts. I am not dogmatic about it.

Grace to you,

jak

[Brandan Kraft]

Hmmm, I was just thinking of Lazarus. What do you think the point was of having these saints resurrected at Jesus' death?