Beast, False Prophet, and Anti-Christ, Oh My!

[Revelator]

Originally posted by Debbiek
Antichrist is anyone who denies Christ. Agreed? (Rev 13:6-blasphemies against God.

Sure. But there are many anti-christs. There is no one person who can be called "The Antichrist." If I'm wrong, please show me from the Bible.

Rev 13:6-blasphemies against God

Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

From this text we gather that the beast has the following characteristics:

1. it would rise up out of the sea
2. it would have 7 heads upon which was written blasphemy
3. it would have 10 horns upon which were 10 crowns
4. like a leopard, feet of a bear, mouth of a lion
5. the dragon gives the beast its power, its seat, and great authority
6. one of the heads is mortally wounded but recovers
7. the world wonders after the beast
8. the beast receives worship as does the dragon which powers it
9. its mouth speaks great blasphemies
10. it continues for forty and two months (3.5 years)
11. the beast makes war with the saints
12. those names not written in the Lamb's book of life will worship the beast

One thing you should understand about Bible prophecy: "beasts" in prophetic contexts refer to kingdoms, nations, tongues, tribes. See Daniel 7:17.

A "beast" in prophecy never refers to an individual.

2 separate folks=beast(antichrist) & false prophet both of rev 13.

Please demonstrate from the Bible that this beast and the false prophet are individuals (if you believe so). You won't be able to, but it might be a Biblical good study for you.

Remember to ask God to guide your study of the Word. Without Him, it's all jibberish.

[Debbiek]

I am aware that the beast is the kingdom. An antichrist is probably his mouth. are you a preterist?
I will get something for you to attack soon.In a couple of days. I hope you arn't waiting on Dan.9 cause I'm not giving it to ya. lol.

[Revelator]

Originally posted by Debbiek
I am aware that the beast is the kingdom. An antichrist is probably his mouth.

Yes.

I will get something for you to attack soon.

I'm not here to attack but to understand.

I hope you arn't waiting on Dan.9 cause I'm not giving it to ya. lol.

What does that mean?

[Debbiek]

It means most folks at this site are preterists. Are you a preterist?
A preterist does not want to hear a futurist use Dan. 9 in any future event because they believe it was all fullfilled in 70 ad.
Are you a futurist or preterist or horse of a different color?

[Revelator]

Originally posted by Debbiek
It means most folks at this site are preterists. Are you a preterist?

Let me read up on the qualifications. In the meantime, consider me a Bibleist. These classifications of thought only serve to prejudice. Let's all be students of the Bible, shall we?

A preterist does not want to hear a futurist use Dan. 9 in any future event because they believe it was all fullfilled in 70 ad.

Is that the classic "bury your head in the sand" manuever, or do preterists have the "absolute truth" regarding their position?

Are you a futurist or preterist or horse of a different color?

We shall see.

[Debbiek]

Hope i can be blunt without seeming rude, because it is not my intention to be rude.
I have no desire to debate any prophecy with someone who believes that all prophecy has been fullfilled.
If you think Rev.13:16-18 has been fullfilled, the mark of the beast, etc, then I withdraw from the debate.

[Revelator]

Originally posted by Debbiek
I have no desire to debate any prophecy with someone who believes that all prophecy has been fullfilled.

Amazing.

You're about to be taught some Biblical truths and already you're trying to run. Can you explain that kind of reflex? What's behind it emotionally, psychologically, intellectually, spiritually?

And what if this is your God-given opportunity to steer somebody away from deception and into the light of the truth?

Or does God not give you such opportunities? Maybe He's given that to me this time.

If you think Rev.13:16-18 has been fullfilled, the mark of the beast, etc, then I withdraw from the debate.

Wow.

Is this the quality of character and discussion I can expect in the forums of 5solas.org? I wanted to know if anybody had statistics on priest behavior and my brother told me to come here and ask. Then I saw other interesting topics so I thought I'd check 'em out.

Anyway, this wasn't a debate as far as I'm concerned. This was a mutual approach to understanding what the Bible has to say about beasts, anti-christs, harlots, etc.

So, it's my understanding, then, that you're not a preterist. Are you a student of the Word? Have you every bit of knowledge to be gained in this lifetime?

[Debbiek]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I have no emotional, psychological, intellectual, or spiritual problem. But thanks for asking.
After attemting to insult me because I'm not a preterist, you ask 2 questions:
1) do I know everything?

No I don't but apparently you do.

2) Am I a student of the Word?

Yes. This is the reason I have no desire to attempt to "mutually approach some understanding" with you regarding our eschatology.
I cannot buy or sell a loaf of bread with a spiritual mark of the beast.

[countrymouse]

Hello, Revelator:

First, for curiosity, why "Revelator?" Sounds like a pretty big claim!

Why do you say that a prophetic beast cannot be an individual? The number of the beast (in Revelation) is the number of a man, is it not?

Second, Debbie may have had her feelings hurt by some of us who are preterists. None of us intended to insult her; nevertheless, if it's my fault, I'd like an opportunity to work it out!

By the way, welcome to the forums!

cm

[Parousia70]

From Debbiek
>>I have no desire to debate any prophecy with someone who believes that all prophecy has been fullfilled.

Translation:

"my mind is made up, so don't bother me with facts."

Debbiek, yes I am a preterist, yet I am not willing to die for this view. I am more than willing to be proven wrong. From what I can gather, you are not willing to be proven wrong.

So fervent is your unwillingness that you refuse to debate with anyone that dosen't hold your view. You therefore refust to debate at all, for engaging someong who agrees with you can NOT be called debate can it?

I, like "Revelator" also consider myself a "Biblist" and that is what led me to a preterist approach to eschatology.
I believe the Bible teaches it.

If It can be demonstrated to me that the Bible does NOT teach it, I will gladly recant.

That is the difference I see between you and me.
You won't recant futurism no matter what the Bible teaches.
IS your view of eschatology really more important than the truth? whatever that truth is?

[Revelator]

Originally posted by Debbiek
Sorry to disappoint you, but I have no emotional, psychological, intellectual, or spiritual problem.

I questioned the mechanism behind your response. I did not say you had a problem, whether or not I believe it to be.

After attemting to insult me because I'm not a preterist...

I stopped insulting people a while back when I realized that it's 1) not Christlike, 2) doesn't usually help get my point across, and 3) is not Christlike. Oh, I already said that... but it's important to list twice.

Anyway, I in no way intended to insult you. Generally, I ask questions to get answers. If it seems insulting, consider it my lack of knowledge, not yours.

1) do I know everything?

No I don't but apparently you do.

When you take the stance that you are unwilling to debate somebody because of your (or their) preconceived notions, you, in essence, declare yourself full-up with knowledge and needing no more.

Or, you're just tired of debating a certain topic... Which I can certainly understand!!!

2) Am I a student of the Word?

Yes. This is the reason I have no desire to attempt to "mutually approach some understanding" with you regarding our eschatology.

You contradict yourself. If you are a student of the Word, and I'm here with new knowledge from the Bible for you, then you refuse to even hear that knowledge, you are no longer a student of the Word... Sure, you could get that knowledge elsewhere, but will you? The Holy Spirit could guide you, but you have to ask for it first; and it doesn't sound like you're willing to explore. If I'm wrong, tell me.

I cannot buy or sell a loaf of bread with a spiritual mark of the beast.

I have no idea what this means in the context of our discussion. Let me guess, though: some preterist said you have the mark of the beast and so you cannot buy spiritual bread, right?

[Revelator]

Originally posted by countrymouse
Hello, Revelator:

First, for curiosity, why "Revelator?" Sounds like a pretty big claim!

I don't know. I liked the sound of it! A while back (many years) I wanted to form a Christian band called "Revelator," but it never happened. The name, however, stuck with me.

Why do you say that a prophetic beast cannot be an individual? The number of the beast (in Revelation) is the number of a man, is it not?

Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

I like the Amplified in this case: "Revelation 13
18Here is [room for] discernment [a call for the wisdom [1] of interpretation]. Let anyone who has intelligence (penetration and insight enough) calculate the number of the beast, for it is a human number [the number of a certain man]; his number is 666."

Those brackets are in the Amplified version.

What's the number of the beast? It's the number of a certain man. This number is used to identify the leader of the beast. As Debbiek called it, the antichrist that heads the beast. So, while the beast itself is not the man, nor is the man the beast, the man at the head can be identified by the number.

Notice in Daniel how the little horn has the "eyes of a man," just as this beast received a "mouth speaking blasphemies." I think this indicates that a man will head these beast powers, as opposed to, say, a group of men. In other words, it would basically be a dictatorship- one man leads or calls the shots.

Second, Debbie may have had her feelings hurt by some of us who are preterists. None of us intended to insult her; nevertheless, if it's my fault, I'd like an opportunity to work it out!

Hey, it happens. Prophets (and those with uncontrolled tongues) speak without a lot of mercy and it comes across as harsh sometimes. And even Jesus called the Pharisees a pit of vipers. I don't advocate name calling, and I'm certainly not Jesus, but He seems to have left us a precedent... heh.

By the way, welcome to the forums!

Thanks!

Now, if somebody would kindly answer my initial questions, or attempt to identify somebody in history who fits the description of the beast of Revelation 13, we could get this discussion moving right along!

[Revelator]

Originally posted by Parousia70
From Debbiek
>>I have no desire to debate any prophecy with someone who believes that all prophecy has been fullfilled.

Translation:

"my mind is made up, so don't bother me with facts."

Could also be translated, "I've debated this a bazillion times and I don't want to do it again." I can sympathize and empathize with that viewpoint.

I told myself no more online debates because they are a waste of my (or any Biblical Christian's) time. Your time is better spent walking the walk and talking the talk with your unsaved family, friends or neighbors. This online stuff is just Satan's way to distract you from a real mission work.

However, I have had some interesting results and expect maybe to meet someone in heaven who will tell me my online mission was successful.

IS your view of eschatology really more important than the truth? whatever that truth is?

Well said. I hope we all keep this ever in mind.

[countrymouse]

Ok!

I don't have time tonight to get into this very deeply (got to sign off and get my sleep after this post), but I'll give you my answer regarding the "beast from the sea." "Sea," in prophetic language, represents nations, peoples, outside the covenant community. Not individuals, but geo-political groups. So this beast from the sea would come from outside Israel. For reasons I'll have to back up later, I see this beast as Julio-Claudian Rome, (or is it Claudio-Julian?), and its head as Nero.

Odyssey, Kermie, Parousia70, jump in and help!

Good night, for now!
cm

[Revelator]

Originally posted by countrymouse
I don't have time tonight to get into this very deeply...

You and me both.

We at least all agree that the little horn of Daniel 7-8 is the same as this beast power of Revelation 13, right?

I see this beast as Julio-Claudian Rome, (or is it Claudio-Julian?), and its head as Nero.

I'll wait for your Biblical+historical evidence... but please show us how Nero satisfies these characteristics of this beast:

1. it would rise up out of the sea
2. it would have 7 heads upon which was written blasphemy
3. it would have 10 horns upon which were 10 crowns
4. like a leopard, feet of a bear, mouth of a lion
5. the dragon gives the beast its power, its seat, and great authority
6. one of the heads is mortally wounded but recovers
7. the world wonders after the beast
8. the beast receives worship as does the dragon which powers it
9. its mouth speaks great blasphemies
10. it continues for forty and two months (3.5 years)
11. the beast makes war with the saints
12. those names not written in the Lamb's book of life will worship the beast

Regarding the little horn of Daniel:

1. arose out of the "fourth beast" Dan. 7:8, 24
2. appeared after ten other horns. Dan. 7:24
3. "little" at first, but eventually becomes "greater than its fellows." Dan.7:8,20
4. it is to "put down three kings;" said of it: "three of the first horns were plucked by the roots." Dan. 7:8,24
5. it is to have "eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things" (sounds just like our Revelation 13 beast!) and it is to speak "words against the Most High" (that's blasphemy, y'all). Dan. 8,25
6. it will "wear out the saints of the Most High." Dan. 7:25
7. it will "think to change times and law." Dan.7:25
8. given power for "a time, two times, and half a time." Dan 7:25. That's 3.5 years, y'all... another shared characteristic with our beast of Revelation 13.

(PLEASE DO NOT use the 666 characteristic. That is simply ONE aspect of this beast, and if we left it out we could still discern who/what the beast is.)

[Debbiek]

No, a previous preterist did not insult me. Revelator was the first to accuse me of having spiritual problems, intellectual, psychological or emotional problems.
I have been thru this debate before many times with preterists & it always ends up the same way, so I just cut to the chase to save revelator & myself time.
Sorry again to disappoint you Revelator, no one told me here that I was not spiritual enough to buy a loaf of bread but thanks anyway.
SInce you cannot comprehend what I said let me make it more clear. The prophecy in Rev. says that we are or WERE forced to take a mark in our hands or foreheads being the mark of the beast. That no one might buy or sell who doesn't have the mark.
The only way to say, (from a preterist viewpoint that all prophecy has been fulfilled), that this happened in 70 AD or whenever, is to say it was a spiritual mark. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to say a mark which is spiritual is forced for us onto our hands or foreheads. What happens when we get to to the market? were they told in 70 ad they couldnt buy something because they didnt have the mark on their forehead that no one could see anyway because it was spiritual?
No point in me debating that all prophecy has been fulfilled because I know the mark has not, & could not, until now.
I allow everyone to believe as they wish without my insulting them, a method revelator has yet to learn.
And even without an apology Revelator, I forgive your insults.

[Twonky]

Originally posted by Revelator
Hey, it happens. Prophets (and those with uncontrolled tongues) speak without a lot of mercy and it comes across as harsh sometimes. And even Jesus called the Pharisees a pit of vipers. I don't advocate name calling, and I'm certainly not Jesus, but He seems to have left us a precedent... heh.

Yes. The precedent being that if you're as perfect as Jesus, you can get away with calling people 'vipers.'

[countrymouse]

Twonky,

John the Baptist wasn't perfect, but he called them vipers too! Just curious, do you know why they both did that?

cm

[Twonky]

Originally posted by countrymouse
Twonky,

John the Baptist wasn't perfect, but he called them vipers too! Just curious, do you know why they both did that?

cm

Not sure.

But you seem to be implying that it's OK, no not ok, it's an acceptable behaviour, to call people names and use the Bible as your reason for the 'holier than thou' attitude?

[countrymouse]

That's not what I'm implying at all! Spiteful name-calling is never acceptable behavior for any Christian. Neither John nor Jesus were setting examples for their followers' behavior when they called the Jewish leaders of that generation "vipers." Jesus, being God, had every right to pass judgement on them, and harshly. They were responsible for teaching the people, and yet they were rejecting their Messiah, the very one the Law and Prophets had foretold. In doing so, as leaders and representatives of Israel, they were bringing God's judgment upon that whole generation. John the Baptist was functioning in his assigned, prophetic role as one who spoke on behalf of God.

Once the change of covenants was complete, there were no more prophets like unto John the Baptist. Christians must stand up for God's truth, but we must do so graciously, with kindness.

cm