Faith and Works (or Paul vs James)

[countrymouse]

I know this has been hashed and rehashed, but every argument I've seen has been missing something, (until the recent posts in the Infant Baptism thread of the Ecclesiology forum). Sorry I can't stay longer this afternoon to watch the action, but I wish the rest of you a fruitful (and respectful) discussion until I get back. (And that doesn't mean it shouldn't remain fruitful and respectful after that!)

Grace and Peace to you all,
cm

[disciple]

so what's the question? are we trying to find out whether or not salvation is by faith alone or whether it is by faith plus works? why say "Paul vs. James?" why not say "Paul and James?" the title already presupposes that they are at odds with one another.

[disciple]

the perfect verse for this discussion is phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

we are to work out our salvation on the one hand (v. 12), but on the other hand it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. just as ephesians 2:8-10 says 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. our salvation is not dependent on our works as if our works were the cause of it, but we are indeed created for good works. we are saved that we may be holy not because we are already holy or as a result of our holiness (1 pet 1:14ff). nowhere in scripture do we find the declaration that if you're holy enough you can be or will be saved.

now for the so-called Christian who wants to claim his salvation yet live however he pleases, he should not be so sure. his faith may not be the type of faith that saves (justifies). this is exactly what james is referring to in chapter 2 of the epistle that bears his name. that's why he uses such terminology as say (v. 14), see (v. 22, 24), and show (v. 18). in james 2:14 it says What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? what use is it to say you have faith if you have no works? grammatically his question should read, "can that type of faith (the type of faith that just says and doesn't do) save him? it is ridiculous for someone to make a claim or justify themselves w/o any evidence. this is to what james is referring. in fact, if we investigate this further along with paul's declaration in romans 4:2-5 it seems we have a contradiction.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

if we take both romans 4:2-5 and james 2:14-26 to mean exactly the same thing and to have the same context then we have a flat out contradiction. one says, you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (jas 2:24) while the other says For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (romans 4:2) take note the phrase but not before God. upon closer investigation it is clear that these passages are not talking about the same thing. we see that paul is referencing gen 15:6 (when abraham did nothing yet but believe) while james is referencing gen 22:1-14 (when abraham demonstrated that belief by offering up isaac). both paul and james use the same Greek word for justify and both appeal to the same person for their illustration. the difference is that they appeal to different events because they are making different arguments. just look at the context of both romans 4 and james 2 and you'll understand. abraham in romans 4 (gen 15:6) was justified before God by faith alone and in james 2 (gen 22) was justified before men when he offered up isaac. also it is interesting to note that the word justify can also mean demonstrated or shown as righteous or just (see mt 11:19, lk 7:35).

[disciple]

another thing to remember in the context of james and romans that paul is contrasting faith and works (before God) while james is contrasting faith with works and faith w/o works (before men). the faith w/o works is a dead (v. 17), useless (v. 20), demon (v. 19) faith, or according to his diatribe is actually no faith at all. it is not that works must be added to faith but that geniune faith includes works (v. 17, 20, 26). as a result of the works, this faith was perfected or complete. in other words, the works demonstrated that this faith was real.

also, james is not saying anything novel. he is not saying anything that hasn't already been stated elsewhere is Scripture (is 1:11-17, 58:7-9, mt 7:21ff, 25:31-46, lk 6:46, gal 5:6, eph 2:10, 1 jo 2:3-5, 3:6-10, 17ff).

Lk 6:46 "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? "

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

1 Jn 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

1 Jn 3:17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19 We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him

[Brandan Kraft]

Disciple, I agree with you... But how do you reconcile this passage in James?

Jas 2:24, (NAS), You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

It's a common passage Catholics and even some mennonites have thrown back at me in their discussions with me. I have my own interpretation, but am curious to see what you (and others) think.

(Note: i just read above that you touched this verse.. sorry. )

[disciple]

From http://www.biblestudytools.net/

13. For--encouragement to work: "For it is God who worketh in you," always present with you, though I be absent. It is not said, "Work out your own salvation, though it is God," &c. but, "because it is God who," &c. The will, and the power to work, being first instalments of His grace, encourage us to make full proof of, and carry out to the end, the "salvation" which He has first "worked," and is still "working in" us, enabling us to "work it out." "Our will does nothing thereunto without grace; but grace is inactive without our will" [ST. BERNARD]. Man is, in different senses, entirely active, and entirely passive: God producing all, and we acting all. What He produced is our own acts. It is not that God does some, and we the rest. God does all, and we do all. God is the only proper author, we the only proper actors. Thus the same things in Scripture are represented as from God, and from us. God makes a new heart, and we are commanded to make us a new heart; not merely because we must use the means in order to the effect, but the effect itself is our act and our duty (Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31, 36:26) [EDWARDS].
worketh--rather as Greek, "worketh effectually." We cannot of ourselves embrace the Gospel of grace: "the will" (Psalms 110:3, 2 Corinthians 3:5) comes solely of God's gift to whom He will (John 6:44,65); so also the power "to do" (rather, "to work effectually," as the Greek is the same as that for "worketh in"), that is, effectual perseverance to the end, is wholly of God's gift (Philippians 1:6, Hebrews 13:21).
of his good pleasure--rather as Greek, "FOR His good pleasure"; in order to carry out His sovereign gracious purpose towards you (Ephesians 1:5,9).

[Fledge]

This will be a very simple answer, short and to the point.
(I'm tired tonight, hard to think in too much depth.)



We are saved by faith unto good works.

If our faith doesn't produce fruit, doesn't produce some evidence, then perhaps we really need to reevaluate our faith.

[disciple]

faith is the root
works is the fruit

[HIS]

Originally posted by disciple . . .

faith is the root

works is the fruit

So, is it your conclusion that where there is no fruit, then there is (likely) no root?

And if no root...Then your "faith" is in vain?

[disciple]

EXACTLY!!! That is what all those verses that people think are saying that salvation is by faith and (or plus) works are actually saying. Salvation is by faith alone, but if your faith doesn't produce works or bear fruit, then it's highly probable that your faith was not real (james 2 in combo with rom 4).

[HIS]

Wow...We are in agreement!

This is what "believing on the Lord" is all about...

[countrymouse]

I have found that most who say that works are somehow necessary don't believe that anyone earns his or her salvation by them. Some do think they keep their salvation in that manner, however. But the Bible, in my opinion, presents good works (deeds that are pleasing to God) as the result of and fulfillment of faith. And, as Kermie pointed out elsewhere, they were prepared for us by God himself.

I said this on another thread a while back, but it's a "horse and cart" issue. It's as though Paul said, "The cart can't pull the horse," and James said, "If the cart isn't moving, the horse is dead."

He is Risen!
cm