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Thread: Man's Free Will

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    In Hymn is on a distinguished road
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    Man's Free Will

    I hear people talking about it. I see entire books written about. There are huge churches built on it, but what I don't see is where it is written in the Scriptures.

    When someone starts ranting about man's free will, shouldn't we just simple ask them to show us where those words are spoken by God in the Bible???

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    Amen In Hymn! I can't find it anywhere either.
    Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!

    "Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.

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    Christ_†_Alone is on a distinguished road Christ_†_Alone's Avatar
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    Such a good point...

    Several years ago, I was a firm believer in man's free will. This is what the pastor preached about, and seemingly backed it up with Scriptures. Everyone I knew, who was saved, believed in free will.

    Then one day, in a clergy chat room, I found a group of people talking about election. I had no idea what they were talking about, since this was a topic I had never once heard in my 3 years at the Assemblies of God pentetcostal church. I was intrigued, so I stayed and read what they were saying. Honestly, I thought they were wackos.

    I dont remember what kind of comment I made, but whatever it was, prompted a lady there to offer me a challenge. The challenge seemed simple enough:

    Proof, with full context of Scripture, that man has free will to choose God - aside and apart from any action by God, in that man's life.

    I thought "what a setup, this is going to be SO easy!". Boy was I in for an awakening to the Scriptures unlike anything I had ever dreamed.

    Every verse I had ever heard my pastor preach on, that supposedly supports free will, turned out, in full context, to NOT support free will at all. Every reference verse I came up with, for THOSE verses, just further demolished the teaching of free will.

    For weeks I studied this, verse after verse, passage after passage, everywhere I went in the Word, free will was never supported, and election, chosen, predestinated, etc. were leaping off the pages! I was sick, I felt so stupid, so gullible, so betrayed. I was too embarassed to go back to that chat room and give an update of my studies, and offer my "proof". I had so arrogantly taken the challenge, and was now humbled into the floor by true, solid Bible teachings.

    Finally I did go back to that chat room, and confess what I had found. It wasn't easy, either. When I did, and there were other "free will" believers in there, and read what I had to say - I was instantly (and condescendingly) called a Calvinist. I had no idea what they were talking about, but it was obviously something ugly, by the way they were saying it. I just figured, if this Calvin guy had read the same verses I did, and he came away seeing what I saw, I guess that made him an allright guy in my opinion

    It took me almost a year, of studying the Word, to come to grasp the truth that man does indeed NOT choose God, of his own free will. It was never taught in the Scriptures, it's a doctrine of man, pure and simple.
    "SOLA SCRIPTURA… GRATIA… FIDE… CHRISTUS… DEO GLORIA" Scripture alone, being our final authority, teaches us that salvation is by grace His grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

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    israelthebride is on a distinguished road israelthebride's Avatar
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    "IF" means ONE has a Choice

    YHWH so loved the world, HE chose to SAVE the world.

    The world was chosen to be SAVED.

    Many choose not to be SAVED.

    Many choose not to be CHOSEN.

    ___________________________


    To choose YHWH, GOD, ONE must choose to LOVE HIM.

    JN 14:15 If ye love ME, keep MY COMMANDMENTs.

    JN 14:21 He that hath MY COMMANDMENTs, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth ME: and he that loveth ME shall be loved of my FATHER, and I will love him, and will manifest MYSELF to him.

    JN 15:10 If ye keep MY COMMANDMENTs, ye shall abide in MY LOVE; even as I have kept MY FATHER's COMMANDMENTs, and abide in HIS LOVE.

    _________________________

    WE cannot keep HIS COMMANDMENTs on our own. WE must choose to submit to HIS HOLY SPIRIT. HOLY SPIRIT can LIVE HIS COMMANDMENTs through US. Again, WE choose.

    JOSH 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve YHWH, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve YHWH.

    _________________________________

    WE are CHOSEN. Now, WE must choose to submit to HIS WAY.

    All CHOICES have their CONSEQUENCES.


    WE are ONE!!!

    LOVE, RICOEL
    WE are ONE.
    The BODY of MESSIAH Ministry

    I did not CREATE YOU for a certain time.
    I CREATED YOU for ETERNITY.
    I CREATED YOU for ME.
    That is why I SAVED YOU.
    For ME.

    Your HUSBAND, YHSHWH

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    Suspended / Banned EndureToLive is on a distinguished road
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    Amen Israelthebride! I see that in the scriptures.

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    In Hymn is on a distinguished road
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    Question

    A copied quote:

    In the Summer of 1994, I engaged in a formal debate with a local church pastor on the question of the extent of Christ’s atonement (I defended the view that Christ died a substitutionary death on behalf of the elect only). My Arminian opponent repeatedly cited passages where Jesus’ death is connected to phrases such as “world,” “whole world,” “all”, and “all men” without first explaining in what sense those terms were used by the New Testament writers. He wrongly assumed that “world” and “whole world” referred to every person without exception. For him, it was enough to simply cite a passage where such words occur and move on to the next text – without any explanation or exegesis bothering to prove that the term “world” must refer to all men universally!

    But this was a fatal flaw in his argument and demonstrated his ignorance of that important principle which says that the meaning of any word should be determined by its context. Had my theological opponent bothered to investigate the terms “world” and “all,” he would have discovered that the New Testament gives a multiplicity of meanings to these terms – most of which are used in a restricted sense and, therefore, cannot denote every person without exception. The following is a small sampling where such terms are used to include some or “all kinds of,” but not all without exception:
    Matthew 10:22 – Jesus’ words should not be pressed, since there have always been and will continue to be people who refuse to exhibit hatred toward Christians. Jesus is speaking of most, but not all persons.
    Mark 1:5 – This cannot mean each and every person, for both the Romans and Israel’s religious leaders had very little interest in John’s call to repentance.
    Luke 1:21 – Rome did not tax all the inhabitants of this planet, but only those within her jurisdiction.
    John 1:9 – Not every person has been enlightened, since the vast majority of mankind remains in darkness (1 John 5:19).
    John 1:10 – Within this one passage there are three different uses of “world,” which should cause Arminians to be more cautious in their claims.
    John 12:19 – Certainly not everyone in the world has gone after Christ, for the majority of the Pharisees refused to.
    Acts 2:17 – The phrase “all mankind” cannot refer to the entirety of the human race, but must mean people of every sort; not just the Jews, but also the Gentiles (Acts 10:45).
    Acts 10:12 – The Greek says, “all four-footed animals,” but clearly means “all kinds of” as the NASB renders it (for other instances of the same, see Matthew 9:35; 10:1; Luke 11:42; 1 Timothy 6:10).
    Acts 17:6 – This cannot mean every person since the Gospel had not yet reached every region on the earth, nor did the apostles upset eveyone they preached the Gospel to (Acts 13:48-49; 17:10-12).
    Romans 1:8 – “Whole world” cannot be taken to mean every place on earth or every person but, instead, refers to most of the regions that were occupied by Rome.
    Romans 5:18 – The latter usage of “all men” can hardly mean every person, but must be interpreted in a restricted sense to denote all those in Christ.
    Romans 11:26 – “All Israel” cannot mean every Israelite, but the majority or a large number of Israelites.
    2 Corinthians 5:14 – “All died” cannot mean every person, for not all have died to sin (Romans 6:3-11; Colossians 3:3).
    1 John 5:19 – “Whole world” cannot possibly mean every single human, since Christians have been freed from Satan’s control (Acts 26:18; 1 John 5:18).
    Revelation 3:10 – “Whole world” cannot be interpreted to mean every person without exception, since Christians will be kept “from the hour of testing.”
    Revelation 12:9 – “Whole world” cannot refer to all living persons, since Christians will not be ultimately deceived by Satan.
    Revelation 13:3 – “Whole earth” cannot mean each and every person, since Christians will not follow after the beast.

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    In Hymn is on a distinguished road
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    Considering the above reference.... ponder the Biblical answers to the following????

    1. Do you believe God must first draw lost sinners to Himself before salvation can occur?

    John 6:65 II Thes 2:13-14
    John 6:44 Romans 3:10-19

    2. Does everyone that God draws, come to Him?

    John 6:37 *note: the first time the word “COME” is used in this verse it is the Greek word HEKO which means MUST COME. The second time the word “ COME” is used in this verse it is the Greek word ERCHOMAI which means anyone who
    chooses to come.
    John 6:44 The word draw used in this verse is the Greek word HELKUO (sometimes spelled ELKO) which means to compel by irresistible superiority.

    3. Does God draw “all men”?

    (The definition of “all men” being every human being ever placed on the face of the earth.)
    John 5:21 Romans 9: 18-24

    It is particularly important to remember the definitions of the Greek words used in these texts because words like “all men” and “draw” have a multitude of meanings depending on the Greek word used. One must also make use your “interpretation” of the term “all men” does not cause Scripture to contradict itself.

    The same Greek word “draw” (helkuo) is used in John 12:32 which states “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” This is a perfect Scripture to test “all men” defined as “every human being ever placed on the face of the earth”. Since the word draw used in this text is “to compel by irresistible superiority” then to interpret that all men is “every human being ever placed on the face of the earth ” would be to interpret that every human being ever place on this face of the earth will receive salvation. That is in contradiction to the Scriptures, since we know there is a hell and that there are souls in hell today. However, it you interpret all men as “men of every nation, class or race” then your interpretation does not cause the Scriptures to contradict themselves.

    This goes back to your interpretation of Titus 2:11. The book of Titus must be read in proper context that Paul was speaking to those in Crete, who were already Christians. This was a book on Christian living. And yes, it is a book of man’s responsibility….but our responsibility AFTER we become Christians.

    One must consider which of the following questions is correct regarding the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ….

    1. Do the Scriptures teach that Christ died for all the sins of all men ? (every human being on earth)

    (if yes, then there is no hell …because all the sins would be paid for in full and hell would not be necessary)

    2. Do the Scriptures teach that Christ died for some of the sins of all men ? (every human being on earth)

    (if yes, then everyone would go to hell, because ALL SIN must be paid for either by the blood of Jesus or eternal hell)

    3. Do the Scriptures teach that Christ died for all the sins of some men ? (God’s elect)

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    ericd is on a distinguished road
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    the only problem with argueing on the concept of "Free will" is what is exactly meant by that term......

    both Calvinist and Arminian accept the free-will supposition, but see it under different light... the calvinist quantifies the will more in that it can act freely, but by it's own internal nature... so really the arguement is moot.... and goes back into whether by nature man is born in enslavement to sin, or is born with a neutral nature to good or evil

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    ericd is on a distinguished road
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    I would further like to post, that, there is a difference between the Catholic view of "original sin" and the reformed view of depravity... one account the transaction to be passed to the children.... the other merely supports that the children have been corrupted into falling into the same rebellion

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    Odyssey is on a distinguished road Odyssey's Avatar
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    israelthebride,

    You are missing the point. No one is denying that people make choices. What is denied is that people choose to follow god. That they have a desire to know him. We believe that the Bible is clear that they don't. People have to be made willing. You have to show that people, on their own, are willingly seeking after god. Are willingly choosing him. Furthermore, you have to show that 'all people' are doing this.

    Next, look at your title here. 'Israel'. Did the people born into the physical nation of Israel have a 'choice' about being Jewish? About being god's covenant people? No. That 'decision' was made for them by Abram.

    To take this one step further, do any of us have a choice about where we are born? About being born? About what colour our hair is or eyes are? About where we live? What we drive? If our 'will' is so powerful, why don't people 'will' themselves out of hospital beds? Why don't they just 'will' the cancer away? It's not that they aren't willing for it to leave, it's that their will has no power to do what they want it to do. That is the real question here. Do people want to know god and have a relationship with him?

    Next, where did Jesus ever state that he gave his life as a ransom for 'all men'?

    Lastly, what about the people, i.e., the Gentiles, who died before the passion of Christ? Where is their 'choice' in the matter?

    Grace to you,

    jak

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    ericd is on a distinguished road
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    Oddesy,

    Well, if ya listen to Kenneth Copeland enough....... j/k!!!!!!!

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    whs1 is on a distinguished road whs1's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Man's Free Will

    The word "freewill" is used first in Leviticus 22:18 (22:17-19):

    " And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying: Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering; Ye shall offer at your own will a male without blemish, of the beeves, of the sheep, or of the goats.""

    Now, in Leviticus the word means in the Hebrew

    5071"nedabah" from 5068"nadab"- a primary root; to impel; hence to volunteer (as a soldier) to present spontaneously: - offer freely, be (give, make, offer self) willingly. "nedabah" - properly (abstract) -spontaneity or (adjective) spontaneous; also (concrete) a spontaneous or (by inference, in plural) abundant gift - free (will) offering, freely, plentiful, voluntary (-ily, offering), willing, (-ly, offering)



    To see just how many different ways in which this word is used we would have to do an exhaustive study of this word as traced thoughout the whole Bible. For the sake of time and space I shall confine this search to only two different Hebrew words in two different ways in which the same English word is used. The same English word "freewill" is used in different Hebrew word in Ezra 7:13 & 7:16.

    The word "freewill" is used here in Ezra 7:13, 7:16 :

    "I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee". "And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem."

    Here in Ezra 7:13, 16 the word comes from

    5069 "nedab" - corresponding to 5068 "nadab": be or give liberally (be minded of .....own) freewill (offering), offer freely (willingly).

    Now, as we can see in the context of both verses the word is used primarily in the same way. Whether one is offering what God tells them they are allowed by God to add to the tithe or even offering themselves to Ezra and the cause of the decree of Cyrus the King of Persia to build the temple at Jerusalem; the meaning of the word in either case is used to show that the will of the giver in the 2 cases here is not forced from without by compulsion nor coersion into offering what is to be offered over and above the tithe commanded by God. Now if what is meant by the word "free will" in any other case conflicts with this...that will not prove the case for what people mean today in "Spiritural Matters" when using this term ‘freewill’.


    So it is a misnomer to say that the word: "freewill" is not in the Bible. It is what the word means in "context" that is the problem with those who go way too far in spiritual definitions of this word.

    By Grace,

    Bill

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    In Hymn is on a distinguished road
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    Re: Man's Free Will

    Thank you Bill. I should have added....freewill, in reference to Salvation. I have never heard anyone ranting about freewill in the area of offering....so I "assumed" everyone understood we were talking about salvation. But now that the "secret" is out about freewill in the area of offering....I guess that will be used as another excuse not to tithe.

    I have to relate an event that happened....a visiting pastor's sermon was all about how the NT was structured after the OT. The harmony between the two etc. (Jesus' cruxifiction on Passover, His Resurrection on the next Jewish holiday, etc etc) He went on to preach that the OT was just setting the "standard" for the NT in what we should expect from God's nature of how He did things. This preacher was clearly a Free Will advocate. He even made the comment that God does not pull Christians kicking and screaming into His Kingdom.

    So after the sermon, I was talking to him and I asked him....did he intend to really preach what he did...and he said of course. If God chose the Jewish people as His people in the OT (not the Babylonians or Persians etc etc) what does that say about who God chose to be His people today? Since the pervailing thought seems to be that it would be "unfair" for God to choose some and not all..... then isn't God being "unfair" in the OT by only choosing the Jewish people? And I said...you know, I have never read in the OT where a Jewish person came kicking and screaming (rebelling) to be born Jewish. They either were or they were not.

    Then we see the extension of that thought in the NT where Jesus....choose the disciples (even choose the one that would deceive Him) , choose to heal exactly whom He decided ( not all), choose the one widow He would help. How is that being fair to all those He did not choose?

    Suddenly, he had an appointment after church that he had to get to....big surprize.

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    Jason777 is on a distinguished road
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    Re: Man's Free Will

    In Hymn,

    I enjoy reading your entries on the doctrines of grace--they are well-thought out, simple and to the point. Thank you

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    In Hymn is on a distinguished road
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    Re: Man's Free Will

    Thank you Jason for those kind words. I give all Glory to God. Anything I have to contribute (even the simpliest of ideas) belongs to Him. I thank Him for allowing me to know Him in a childlike faith. I marvel at His Wonder. And it is in humble gratitude that I strive to learn more about Him, in order to glorify Him in all my limited understanding.

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    Jason777 is on a distinguished road
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    Re: Man's Free Will

    Quote Originally Posted by In Hymn
    Thank you Jason for those kind words. I give all Glory to God. Anything I have to contribute (even the simpliest of ideas) belongs to Him. I thank Him for allowing me to know Him in a childlike faith. I marvel at His Wonder. And it is in humble gratitude that I strive to learn more about Him, in order to glorify Him in all my limited understanding.
    You're welcome. Yes, any good thing we have is from God alone--the Father of lights. I thank Him for giving me clarity of thought to write, otherwise I couldn't do it. I'm too scatterbrained! God is good to His children, isn't He?

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    thepaulinator is on a distinguished road
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    Re: Man's Free Will

    The free will discussion is something I have been praying about, reading up on, and listening to for the past couple of months. It seems that with every mention of the term "free will", it is equivocated with, "an act totally absent of grace". It certainly can be thought of as such, but not with EVERY instance. I will now attempt to treat the issue from a Roman Catholic standpoint (don't blow me off just yet ).

    In regards to the question of freedom of the will, I will treat it in regards to freedom from sin, similar to the way Luther did, but with some obvious differences. I will begin with a familiar verse...

    "31: Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32: and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
    (John 8:31-32, RSV)

    I will not get into wether we are free from actually committing sin or from the wages of sin, yet, so hopefully a verse following will be enough for now...

    "34: Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin..."
    (John 8:34, RSV)

    Now, freedom implies the ability to act outside of the control of the former ruler, i.e. sin. For example, the Israelites were set free from bondage and control of Egypt by God through Moses, a type of Christ. Relatedly, the world was set free from the control of sin by God through the merits of the Christ, Jesus (John 1:29). I do not supply the verse, John 1:29 in attempts to preach universal atonement, but rather to show that Jesus came to free both Jew and Gentile from the bondage of sin. However, this freedom from sin seems to have a condition laid down by Christ's own words...

    "If you continue in my word..." (John 8:31, RSV, emphasis added)

    As long as such a person remains in the truth, that is, as long as someone remains in Jesus (John 14:6), they have freedom from sin (be it actual sin or the penalty). This seems to go along with John 15:4

    "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me" (RSV)

    Now, from this I can gather that there is no freedom from sin apart from Christ, that is, without Christ, no man can refrain from sin. Also, if you are remaining in the truth, in Christ, you are able to resist sin:

    "11: So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions."
    (Romans 6:11-12, RSV)

    This command by Saint Paul is only made possible to obey because of the merits of Christ, and NOT by the free will alone. Canon III from the council of Trent states the free will cannot do this without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

    CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

    Christ and Christ's apostles do not command that which is impossible to obey. If the ability to refrain from all sin were impossible, Jesus would not have commanded the many people that he healed to stop sinning (John 5:14, John 8:11). Refraining from sinning is always possible while you remain in Christ:

    "13: No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."
    (1 Corinthians 10:13, RSV)

    With Christ it is always at least possible to find this way of escape, and thus, refrain from sin, and maintain our Christian freedom from sin. These verses seem to imply a freedom from actually sinning, rather than merely the penalty of sin. However, that is not my point, because I believe that in Christ, we are also free from the penalty of sin, I am not trying to draw a dichotomy. I am trying to show that we are also made free from actual sin, as long as we remain in Christ. Now this begs the question:

    "Is it possible, that after coming to Christ and obtaining the freedom of sin that comes from Him, to somehow fall away from his grace, and back into the bondage of sin?"

    In other words, if the condition is wether or not a person remains in Christ, would not the possibility of falling back into the bondage of sin be at least possible? I think so. First, back to one of the earlier verses:

    "34: Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin..."
    (John 8:34, RSV)

    I am not using this as a proof text by any means, but I am rather using it to show the relationship between actually sinning, and signing yourself over to its bondage (seems obvious, no?).

    "26: For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27: but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries."
    (Hebrews 10:26-27, RSV)

    This seems to imply the warning against falling away AFTER receiving knowledge of the truth. The author goes on:

    "28: A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29: How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?"

    From this warning, it does not seem as if the sins committed after receiving Christ are simply forgiven. The author of the sin described in Hebrews 10:26-27 seems to be in a fiery situation, one similar to those who reject Christ from the onset. If that is the case, then it would seem that the person commiting the sin after receiving the truth, has again become a slave to sin.

    So now, I have at least tried to protray the possibility of sinning after being freed from sin. Now, I have also stated that the only way to avoid this possibility, is to rely on the grace of Christ, and NOT the free will alone (that is, assuming there even is a free will).

    Now, if it is at least possible to sin after receiving Christ, that is, if you cease to remain in Him, and as long as you do remain in Him, you are free from sin, what could possibly be the cause of this loss of freedom portrayed in Hebrews 10:26-27. Most who post on this board would say it is the sovereignty of God, God's will. Others would still reject the possibility altogether. I would say going from "remaining in Christ" to "sinning deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth" is caused by the free will, acting APART from God's grace. Considering the length of this post, I will end on that note, and I pray this discussion becomes a fruitful one.
    veritas aequitas et pax

  18. #18
    Skeuos Eleos is on a distinguished road Skeuos Eleos's Avatar
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    Re: Man's Free Will

    Quote Originally Posted by thepaulinator
    Now, if it is at least possible to sin after receiving Christ, that is, if you cease to remain in Him, and as long as you do remain in Him, you are free from sin, what could possibly be the cause of this loss of freedom portrayed in Hebrews 10:26-27. Most who post on this board would say it is the sovereignty of God, God's will. Others would still reject the possibility altogether. I would say going from "remaining in Christ" to "sinning deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth" is caused by the free will, acting APART from God's grace. Considering the length of this post, I will end on that note, and I pray this discussion becomes a fruitful one.
    The paulinator,

    Hebrews 10:26-27 is not speaking of those who have received Christ. In verse 16 God says that He will "put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Those who truly believe will not "deliberately keep on sinning" and God uses warnings such as this as part of the means by which He accomplishes this. Nothing in these verses implies free will. Maybe this is the crux of the matter:
    Christ and Christ's apostles do not command that which is impossible to obey.
    I disagree. Who, for example, can love the Lord their God with all their heart, with all their strength? A command does not imply ability to obey but God uses these conditional statements to cause His people to look to Him. God's Elect WILL abide in Him and WILL continue in His Word because God alone will keep them. (John 6:39, Eph 1:13-14, Phil 1:6, Rom. 8:28-39, etc)

    Martin

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    Re: Man's Free Will

    Christ and Christ's apostles do not command that which is impossible to obey.
    This is the crux of the whole matter and this was Erasmus's argument as well. However, the Bible never tells us that just because God commands something, the person who is commanded has the ability to perform the action. At its root this is also the Pelagian error. If this statement were true, Christ would not have had to die at all.

    The fact of the matter is that although we are rational, moral creatures and physically capable of obedience, from a spiritual standpoint we are completely incapable. We are dead in sin. Dead people cannot obey. Our will is bound by sin and the only inclination it has is to do evil. God has every right to require of us whatever He wants, because He is God. God's command to obey does not place God in some subordinate relationship to His command in which now He must grant spiritual ability.

    Sola Gratia,
    WildBoar
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Man's Free Will

    Is your justification for this:

    Hebrews 10:26-27 is not speaking of those who have received Christ.
    This?

    In verse 16 God says that He will "put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Those who truly believe will not "deliberately keep on sinning" and God uses warnings such as this as part of the means by which He accomplishes this.
    Then I simply ask the following:

    Can someone be sanctified who has not "truly" received Christ? If yes, then I guess you would admit there is a possibility of sanctification/justification apart from Christ. If no, then I would show you , again, verses 28-29, specifically 29:

    "28: A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29: How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?"
    (Hebrews 10:28-29, RSV)

    If he profaned the blood by which he WAS sanctified, does this previous sanctification not imply that such a person had indeed truly received Christ?

    I disagree. Who, for example, can love the Lord their God with all their heart, with all their strength?
    Ask Michael the Archangel, or any other angel in heaven for that matter. My point was, that with the grace of Christ, all things are possible.

    "Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
    (Matt 19:26, Mark 10:27)

    "For nothing is impossible with God."
    (Luke 1:37)

    A command does not imply ability to obey but God uses these conditional statements to cause His people to look to Him.
    I agree, that a basic command does not imply ability to obey. However, in the case of sin, the command from God to "sin no more", is able to be obeyed, as I cited...

    "13: No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."
    (1 Corinthians 10:13)

    With that, Paul makes it quite clear there is always the possibility to avoid sin, as long as you are with Christ.
    veritas aequitas et pax

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