The Logical Death of Christianity

[Corbin]

The Logical Death of Christianity.

I would like to say to begin with that I am sure that no ideas in here are original with me, but in several years of reading and discussing the subject, I have not seen them put together in this fashion.

I will start by outlining some precepts of Christianity with comments about how widely I think they are held. In some cases there will be alternatives to a particular point.

1. God is all-powerful (pretty universally held)
2. God is good and loving ( a majority view certainly)
3. When you die, your soul goes to heaven or hell (pretty universal, with some adding a ‘Blairite’ third way of purgatory)
4. Humans are born sinful, thanks to that git Adam (pretty widely held)
5. Jesus was the son of God, incarnate (again, a widely held belief)
6. Jesus died on the cross to absolve man’s sin (ditto)
7. Only if you accept Jesus and his sacrifice can you lose your sin and enter heaven (strict view, there are alternatives)
7.b. Only if you have heard of Jesus are you required to accept him for salvation (fair-play view)
7.c. Even if you reject Jesus, you can enter heaven if you are a good person (modern wishy-washy view)

Now, if we start with the strictest view, only those ‘washed in the blood of Jesus’ can enter heaven, we immediately come into conflict with the concept of a loving God. Any poor person who was never preached to (although many would call him a lucky bugger) will go to hell (or purgatory), denied for all eternity the joy of heaven just because no one bothered to tell him about Jesus. That certainly contradicts a loving God, so that concept of Christianity crashes and burns right there. If anyone can counter this one, I’d like to hear it.

Next we take the slightly fairer view that if you never heard of Jesus, you get a shot at paradise, as long as you are a good person. Pretty good case you might think. But if this is the case and man’s innate sin can be got around without believing in Jesus, then by having Jesus die for us, and letting some people know about it, God is putting extra obstacles on the path of entry to heaven for some people, but not others. How is that fair and loving? If you can enter heaven without Jesus, why deny heaven to those who have heard of him but cannot accept him on the flimsy evidence available. After all, God built our brains to be inquisitive, and he must have known that his ‘mysterious ways’ would be too much for some to accept.

And then we come to the ultra-liberal view that you can get into heaven by being good whatever. In this case, what was the whole point? Send your son out to die in agony for no purpose whatsoever. Is that the act of a loving God?

What is left? The whole edifice contradicts itself out of existence.

[Pete]

Sorry, I fail to see how this is logical.

[Corbin]

ummmm
could u be more specific please?????????

[Pete]

Sure.

1.An opinion is not logic.
2.Logic does not start with a conclusion and then work backwards to satisfy that conclusion.
3.I'm hoping your post is tongue -in-cheek and not a serious pronouncement to be taken seriously.

[Corbin]

I'm hoping your post is tongue -in-cheek and not a serious pronouncement to be taken seriously.

It wasn't. I'd really like to hear you refute me. So far you havnt said anything.

[Pete]

Well, there's nothing to refute. You've presented your opinion on the subject, not an argument. You have a right to your opinion.
An argument would be a factual presentation, the facts could then be supported or refuted.
I was pointing out that this is not a logical argument, but an opinion. Refuting your opinion would simply be arguing, not an argument.

[Corbin]

Fair enough. It was my own interpretation, I won't deny that. But what I meant was, you really didn't state your oppinion on the matter. It's obvious you don't agree with my opinion, so I am just curious as to why.

[Pete]

I do have a few questions about the path you've taken to your conclusions.
".... Any poor person who was never preached to (although many would call him a lucky bugger) will go to hell (or purgatory), denied for all eternity the joy of heaven just because no one bothered to tell him about Jesus. That certainly contradicts a loving God,..."

You assume there are such "lucky buggers". One could also include babies or anyone not mentally capable of understanding language or speech or even, since you are using the "strictest view" in this situation, anyone non-King-James-English-speaking,and we must include anyone born before Jesus death on the cross. That's a huge chunk of humanity, and if your assumption is correct, then God is truly unloving.
Since I believe God to be a loving God ("He who does not love does not know God, for God is love....In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be a propitiation for our sins." 1 John4:8 and10) then perhaps the assumption is incorrect or at least missing something.
How did Moses or Abraham hear about Jesus? Or even further back in time, Enoch who "walked with God and was not, for God took him."Genesis 5:24 (This chapter is basically a geneology from Adam. You'll see that everyone "lived" X number of years,then"died" except Enoch who simply "was not, for God took him." Obviously they didn't know about Jesus. They did, however, know about the promise God made to send a Messiah, and it was their faith in this promise that granted then rightousness in God's eyes.
The scriptures detail several covanents from God that deal with man's position to Jesus in several ways. The Old Covenant (Mosaic covenant) shows God's promise to send a Redeemer and man interacted either through faith in God's promise of redemption or rejection of that promise. After Jesus, the promise was fulfilled,a New Covenant is established, but the interaction remains the same, faith in God's promise of redemption or rejection. Apostle Paul explains this in a much clearer way in Romans 3:21-26 and chapter 4. It is justification by grace through faith and not simply a knowledge of Jesus. In James, cpt.2, he says "You believe in God? You do well. The devil also believes, and trembles." It is not "believing in God" that saves us. Certainly Satan knows with a direct, firsthand knowledge of God and he certainly knows Jesus. He believes in God and Jesus, but, for whatever reason, rejected God.
So, that vast chunk of those before Jesus have access to salvation, and even those who don't read Elizabethan english as their mother tongue. That still leaves those who never had scripture to read and all those babies. (I'll continue tomorrow. It's late and I do work for a living,)

[GRANTM]

Hello again Corbin, Best Of luck in your finals,

While I agree with Pete you are a little weak in presentation as to the logic/opinion style, you do give your opines, as such, I would liketo query these and only suggest , alternate points to consider.

Agreed that I am Outsider looking in, But in no way should any of my queries be seen or viewed as contrary to the spirit of Christianity ,Which by defination true Christians hold so dear, and rightly so. For that is your belief and faith, As an outsider I only, because of my belief and faith in God, so stipulates, is that I bring all faith , belief and reflections of God, up to and equal to your Great standards of belief and faith, and not a reduction of your standards down.


[QUOTE]
{1. God is all-powerful (pretty universally held)}

Definately, not limited to Christianity is held by most beliefs
from tribal religions to the current Big 5 religions


{2. God is good and loving ( a majority view certainly)}

I most probably am in a minority as I feel God is benign, the good or loving comes from how we the individual feels when we follow the right path and do Gods will, God does not impose his will, We feel good about ourselves. because we know we are on the correct path. and then transpose those feelings of good and love as that of Gods,

But

Regardless of my Opinion, I agree it is a majority opinion of Christianity, and most other religions.


{3. When you die, your soul goes to heaven or hell (pretty universal, with some adding a ‘Blairite’ third way of purgatory)}

Actually, not pretty universal at all, to Christianity, The concept of Hell Is one of the 5 most active topics within the Christian religion.
By biblical scholars.

eg:
The references to Hell, diminish upon subsequent editions and versions to the bible and always comes up among debates of
Which Bible is more correct.


{4. Humans are born sinful, thanks to that git Adam (pretty widely held}

As a universal statement agreed, ( most feel Eve more culpable
than Adam) but within that statement there are so many ramifications causes and doubts to what is original sin is.


Now we switch to the New testament of the Bible And The Birth of Chrtistianity

{5. Jesus was the son of God, incarnate (again, a widely held belief)}

This is the paramount of Christianity, without this concept Christianity does not exist, and Your points after this 6, 7, 7b & 7c are just a minutae of the detail of this religion,

6. Jesus died on the cross to absolve man’s sin (ditto)
7. Only if you accept Jesus and his sacrifice can you lose your sin and enter heaven (strict view, there are alternatives)
7.b. Only if you have heard of Jesus are you required to accept him for salvation (fair-play view)
7.c. Even if you reject Jesus, you can enter heaven if you are a good person (modern wishy-washy view)

Quote:
{Now, if we start with the strictest view, only those ‘washed in the blood of Jesus’ can enter heaven, we immediately come into conflict with the concept of a loving God. Any poor person who was never preached to (although many would call him a lucky bugger) will go to hell (or purgatory), denied for all eternity the joy of heaven just because no one bothered to tell him about Jesus. That certainly contradicts a loving God, so that concept of Christianity crashes and burns right there. If anyone can counter this one, I’d like to hear it.}

One must remember, to differenciate between that which is of Faith in God Through Jesus, and The myriad of Churches within Christianity, Which of course is by definition is the politics of the faith. (The How)The concept then does not crash but the politics of "Church" collapses. Which therefore would require the
Resulting of a myriad of Churches within any given religion.
and is applicable to all religions.

{Qoute}
(Next we take the slightly fairer view"}

Fair to whom? You, Me Is this not subjective? Is being fair to you or to me, being fair to someone else whose beliefs are differing where is the fairness to them?


{Quote: that if you never heard of Jesus, you get a shot at paradise, as long as you are a good person. Pretty good case you might think.}

Does this not imply, as God is Universal, and doing Gods will
Through whatever eyes you percieve him to be ,will produce "favour" in Gods Realm?

Quote:
{But if this is the case and man’s innate sin can be got around without believing in Jesus, then by having Jesus die for us, and letting some people know about it, God is putting extra obstacles on the path of entry to heaven for some people, but not others.}

This I feel it is not God putting Obstacles in our way, but of mankinds putting obstacles in our own way. the absolution is clear but the methodology is not.

{Quote}
{How is that fair and loving? If you can enter heaven without Jesus, why deny heaven to those who have heard of him but cannot accept him on the flimsy evidence available. After all, God built our brains to be inquisitive, and he must have known that his ‘mysterious ways’ would be too much for some to accept.}

again we get back fair to whom,

If you feel God through Christianity, then this is how you believe,
This is fair to the Christian Belief system.
Calling yourself Christian requires this belief to gain entrance into the realm of God,

However I feel that if you see God through any other belief system and subscribe to their tennets & practices it is equally valid,

Now we come to the reality in that, each religion must within itself believe that they are the more correct religion. Now we get back to the political nature of religion......

{ Quote:
And then we come to the ultra-liberal view that you can get into heaven by being good whatever. In this case, what was the whole point? Send your son out to die in agony for no purpose whatsoever. Is that the act of a loving God?}

The subjective, it is not so much the deed that is important, but the belief, The degree of commitment you hold to your belief in the deeds which increases the degree of faith in your beliefs

{Quote:}
{What is left? The whole edifice contradicts itself out of existence.}

Your use of the word edifice is key here it is not that the Belief and Faith disappear, but becomes a more personal attachment
to the belief and faith of the Individual. thus a corresponding reduction of the political aspects of their Faith.

[gsr]

Seems to me the source of the argument is the finite number of those who will have eternal life. Unfortunately, Scripture has a different opinion.

Mt 7:14, (KJV), Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And by all the earlier assumptions, yes, this is and will be a minority viewpoint in the world. Yes, Christianity like Judaism will be the scourge the world will try to remove from the earth. No, Christianity will have no end and each one of the faith does not end their life by death, but only begins their life in death, especially death in witnessing for Jesus Christ.

[ericd]

There is a fatal error in your logic Pete... God is a loving God, and it's logically proven in the idea of the limited number of people saved... There are suppositions you make that are pretty errant..... God can provide salvation to a limited number, while denying the same means to others, and still be "loving and merciful" because no where is there a mandate that all be saved, and those who were provided with said means, would have been no different to those who weren't, and would be just as damned..... There's no logical flaw in it... let's look at it from this example...

Let's say, one day, I were decided to walk out of my house, and divide up a sum of money, into 1,000 buck chunks.... and to give it to homeless people on the street... Let's say that while walking around I randomly picked one person to get some of it, and another not to..... now, under your arguement, I am neither loving nor merciful, cause I choose not to give everyone the same.... The point of the Gospel is not man, it's God, and God's glory, the central theme you could say.... God's glory in His love and mercy is seen in the salvation and regeneration of the believer... and God's glory in justice is seen in the judgment of the reprobate.....

You have been conned into the "God is only love" circle and it's resulted in seeing Him as a failure, purely because you never realized that while He is love, He is also wrath.... While He is mercy, He is also justice...... Had all been saved, there would be no justice..... has all been damned there would be no mercy... that is logic... taking the account to it's fullest....

[Odyssey]

Also, to continue with ericd's statements, the love of god has always been towards his people. He only 'knows', in the biblical sense, his people. His love and mercy are gifts to them and not all people. All people deserve his wrath, but he reserves the right to be merciful upon whom he chooses, the rest, he leaves in their sin.

Grace to you,

jak