How were Old Testament saints saved?

[Fledge]

Many people falsely assume that only New Testament believers are saved by grace whereas Old Testament believers were saved by their obedience to the law of Moses and not by grace. The truth is that both the Old and New Testaments clearly teach that everyone who is saved, throughout all history, is saved the same way: by grace, through faith, on account of Christ alone.

In fact, the New Testament writers argue their case largely by appealing to the Old Testament Scriptures themselves. First, after spending the bulk of three chapters to prove that both Jews and Gentiles are unrighteous, quoting extensively from the Old Testament (Rom. 1-3), the apostle Paul concludes that no one will be declared righteous by observing the law (Rom. 3:20).

Furthermore, Paul points to Abraham, the father of the Jews who lived long before Moses, as his prime test case to prove that salvation comes through faith apart from works that we perform. Paul writes, "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness' " (Rom. 4:2-3; cf. Gen. 15:6; Gal. 3:6-9).

Finally, Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all the symbols and predictions of the Old Testament (Luke 24:44; Rom. 3:21-22; Heb. 1:1-3). For example, the Jews celebrated the Passover every year to keep them focused on the One who was to come to die for their sins. As the book of Hebrews says, "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest [Christ] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy" (Heb. 10:1, 11-12, 14).

Jesus Christ stands at the apex of history. Just as we look back in history to Christ's sacrifice for our sins on the cross, Old Testament believers looked forward to His sacrifice for them.

[Brandan Kraft]

OT saints were saved the way we are saved today... It's all God's grace, His divine election.

[Tracy Van]

I guess another good question would be:When were the OT saints saved?

Tracy

[Brandan Kraft]

Well technically, all of God's elect are saved before they were born... His children are ORDAINED for salvation, and that ordination means it was as good as done.

[Tracy Van]

Yes Kermie,

It is true that the Elect are saved before history began. But since history follows after its beginning, let me specify a bit more. When, in history, are the OT saints saved?

Tracy

[Brock]

Reviewing the "Hall of Faith", what is described is not faith in Jesus. In all cases, faith is believing and then acting upon that faith. In all cases, faith is exercised only after hearing a word from God. And I agree it works that way in the NT with your relationship with Jesus. However, none of the OT discussions of faith were about Jesus.

[Alan Stevens]

Hi Brock

I undertsand where your;e coming from. But this is what Paul taught in Galatians 3:

The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'In you shall all the nations be blessed!' So then, those who have faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. (vv. 8-9) … In Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham comes upon the gentiles that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith (v.14) … There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring (seed), heirs according to the promise (vv.28,29).


In Genesis 15:6 it says, "Abram believed the Lord, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness." God justifies Abram because of his faith, and justification is an act of God full of promise. Ever since God had chosen this ungodly Aramean and promised to make him a great nation (Gen. 12:1-3) he had remained childless. The promise seemed hopeless (Gen. 15:2). But God, who delights in doing the humanly impossible, says to him in Genesis 15:4,5: "Your own son shall be your heir … Look toward heaven and number the stars if you are able to number them … So shall your descendants be." God is going to act for Abraham. Therefore, Abraham looks away from himself (in a grand reversal of Adam's sin) and trusts God to keep his word. That act of faith so honors the glory of God's trustworthiness and power and mercy that God responds with the incomparable gift of justification: he declares Abraham to stand righteous before him. Not that Abraham will never sin again. He will. But he has now been forgiven for all his sins, past and future, in the sense that God will not bring him into condemnation for them (cf. Rom 4:1-8).(John Piper)

Therefore Abraham believing in the promise is not another way to salvation. The Gospel was part of the promise given to Abraham. Gal 3

Abraham only understood the promise, but God accounted it to him as righteousness , as the promise included the Gospel.

Who are Abraham's seed, we who are Christians are, for we are inheritors of the promise.

So the promise included Christ, it had to, the only way of salvation is through Christs death.

Tracy Van asked when OT saints were saved. Well, perhaps, it can be looked at like this.

Their salvation was secure before the founadtions of the earth, when God predestined them for glory. It was effected when God gave them the faith in the promise to come , when they were alive. But, when Christ died, the ransom was paid for their sins (Which God had passed over in time) and they ultimately received their inheritance.

We today, this side of the cross do not have to wait like they do. We to are predestined before time. But, because Christ death has already happened, God gives us the faith to be justified immediately and the spirit enters us as a guarentee or if you like a 'down payment' of our inheritance, which cannot be lost to the elect.

To take Christ out of the OT faith, takes away the effectivness of the faith that God gave them. They may not have known much about it, but Christ was in it.

Cheers

[Brock]

To take Christ out of the OT faith, takes away the effectivness of the faith that God gave them. They may not have known much about it, but Christ was in it.

Cheers [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, lets take thei issue bast Abraham. How about the OTs between Adam and Abraham? Again, if Paul did not tie the OT faithful men with the Cross, why not?

My contention is that something had to change from before the Cross to after the Cross. If not.....

[Alan Stevens]

Hi Brock

That is a very Good question, Why did Paul not mention it?

I suppose the answer was, he did not need to!

Galatians 3, which speaks about Abraham and his faith, was written to show that Gentiles under Christ receive the promises God had given to Abraham. We are all now Abrahams Children.

But Looking at Hebrews 11 and the pre Abraham promise.

Heb 11:1-40, (NKJV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was translated so that he did not see death, " and was not found because God had translated him"; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Heb 12:1-29, (NKJV)
1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The best explanation of it that i have come across, is by Daniel Fuller, in his book "The Unity of the Bible" where he describs this period (in 2 chapters) as the "Protection of the Woman's seed"

Where Daniel Fuller makes the point that faith that these had i.e. Abel, Enoch, Noah was related to the promise God had made in Genesis 3. That a saviour would come to bruise the serpents head. Enouch's faith was that he sought God for the promise and Noah bulit an Ark Knowing that he would carry the future of the promise. You may ask how much did they know? I would say not a lot, but they still had faith in the promise of God.
Hebrews 11 39-40 would include those who through faith looked to the promise. Also Hebrews 12 v 2 Calls Christ the author and finisher of faith. To say that these had no faith in the promise of God, i think does them a dis-service, as God can only save by grace, through faith.
Also they were elect by God and therefore their faith was given by God to be effected by the work of Christ.

So what changed before the cross to after the cross. Not the method of salvation but the application of salvation. They only knew a far off, we know in the 'heart'

The new covenant is a covenant written on our hearts. We have a relationship where God reveals himself to us, constantly. They had a revelation where God revealed himself at certain times and gave direction 'through prophets'. The looked forward we have received.

I hope that makes sense ( i have a splitting headache at the moment) so it may not!!

Cheers

[Bill Ross]

<Brock>
>>My contention is that something had to change from before the Cross to after the Cross. If not.....

<Bill>
Hi, Brock. We've been discussing this extensively on another thread, I believe it was called "Same Gospel?" and a couple of other names.

The gist of my position is that justification has always been by faith, but it is only since Christ was lifted up that it is open to all men to "look upon the healing serpent".

Clearly Paul claims that he is the one in whom God divulged the gospel.

I hope you'll read the threads, and post soon.

Shalom,

Bill Ross

[rainbow promise]

Hi,

In Genesis we read about the first sin and also in Gen.3:15 we read the promise of a saviour.."And I will put enmity beteen thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Their belief in this promise and acceptance of it is what enables them to put claim on the salvation that comes only from Christ.

Also the different ceremonies and sacrificial services were a shadow of the Lords coming, His death, and resurrection. These were instituted before Moses. It is seen with Cain and Able,

The meaning of this wasn't made clear till Moses tho, but they were in use. I won't go into great detail on that rite now tho.

The important thing is they were symbolic of Christ and His work for the salvation of man. Every time these were done they were showing this event in symbolism.

That is why the curtains were ripped in the temple. Because after the death of Christ there were to be no more sacrifices as Jesus took His place as the lamb of God. He became the sacrifice that all the other pointed too.

[Bill Ross]

<rainbow promise>
...That is why the curtains were ripped in the temple. Because after the death of Christ there were to be no more sacrifices as Jesus took His place as the lamb of God. He became the sacrifice that all the other pointed too.

<Bill>
This thread may be a bit old, but I did want to comment on this...

Why were there no more sacrifices? Was it because Jesus' death "fulfilled the law?" No. Rather we are told that Christ dd not even approach his priestly ministry with reference to the Torah. Rather, it was taken away *so that he could establish the second.* That is, *before Christ died* he had already set aside that approach.

Christ came via a different priesthood altogether. He did not fulfill the law at all, since he was under a different jurisdiction altogether. He *could not* fulfill the levitical preisthood since he was not even a Levite! He could no more fulfill it than you or I could.

Nor was a lamb a sacrificially significant animal. That is, it was by bulls and goats that atonement was made, not by lambs.

The reason that there are no more sacrifices is given in scripture: because sin is forgiven freely under a new covenant:

Hebrews 10:
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

He is referring to the NC, which is based on forgiveness of sin:

Heb 10:
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. {And their: some copies have, Then he said, And their}

To clarify, this is the concept of justification by faith:

Heb 10:
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, {boldness: or, liberty}
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; {consecrated: or, new made}

Bill Ross

[Judge_Dred]

Hey all,

Got in on this one a little late here, but lets give this a shot.

How could there have been any form of salvation in the OT when there was no concept of salvation before Christ? The only thing the OT saints had was the law and responsibility to the law. How can one be saved if it not for the attoning blood of Christ? How can one be saved when the law had not been fulfilled?

I think it is rightousness (responsibility to God) that justified the OT saints. David was considered a man after Gods own heart, yet he could not have been saved through "salvation". His rightousness (responsibility) toward God is what justified him to God. Noah was not "saved" he was responsible to God who in turn was responsible to him in saving his family from certain death.

Look at what happened to the city of sodom and gamorrah. What was the whole premise of the argument there? If God could only find a "Rightous" (responible) man in the whole city God would spare it.

Responsibility to the law is what justified men to God. No one was perfect to the law, but there hearts condition is what God was looking at. Were they responsible with what God had entrusted them to do, were they rightous?

Since Christ had not died on the Cross and fulfilled the law, one cannot bring salvation into the picture until Matt. One can, however, bring rightousness into the picture as it was an essentioal part of a mans life toward God. Those that were found rightous by God were responsible with what God have given them from there animals to their nation. They did not seek to glorify self, but rather wanted only what God wanted. (responsibility)

Responsibility toward the law which God had given them was the salvation of the OT, not the crusifiction. Today salvation is through Christ and our responsiblity is to Him, not the law which Christ fulfilled.

[Bill Ross]

<JD>
>>How could there have been any form of salvation in the OT when there was no concept of salvation before Christ?

<Bill>
What justifies is not Christ, but God, on the basis of faith. This is outlined in Genesis and in Romans:

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

<JD>
>>The only thing the OT saints had was the law and responsibility to the law.

<Bill>
In those instances where the people were presented a "faith opportunity" by hearing the word of God, whether about obtaining a birth through a miraculous birth, God's promises concerning the promised land, etc, they could be justified by believing. Even by "walking with God" or building an ark. See Heb 11:

Hebrews 11:
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. {substance: or, ground, or, confidence}
2 For by it [faith] the elders obtained a good report.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

<JD>
>>How can one be saved if it not for the attoning blood of Christ?

<Bill>
Christ blood was not an atonement, but rather a propitiation.

<JD>
>>How can one be saved when the law had not been fulfilled?

<Bill>
The "fulfillment of the law" does not provide the basis of justification, rather, justification is based on the forgiveness of sin.

<JD>
>>I think it is rightousness (responsibility to God) that justified the OT saints.

<Bill>
Hebrews is very clear that it was faith. See Heb 11:2

<JD>
>>David was considered a man after Gods own heart, yet he could not have been saved through "salvation". His rightousness (responsibility) toward God is what justified him to God.

<Bill>
It was David who described justification in terms of forgiveness of sin:

Romans 4:
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

<JD
>>Noah was not "saved" he was responsible to God who in turn was responsible to him in saving his family from certain death.

<Bill>
God is not *responsible* to save, but does so based on his grace:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

<JD>
>>Look at what happened to the city of sodom and gamorrah. What was the whole premise of the argument there? If God could only find a "Rightous" (responible) man in the whole city God would spare it.

<Bill>
This is not a reference to *how* one is reckoned righteous, only to the fact that 10 were not righteous.

<JD>
>>Responsibility to the law is what justified men to God. No one was perfect to the law, but there hearts condition is what God was looking at. Were they responsible with what God had entrusted them to do, were they rightous?

<Bill>
If you are saying that men were justified by faith (which is not at all clear) then you are correct, of course. Is that what you are trying to say?

<JD>
>>Since Christ had not died on the Cross and fulfilled the law, one cannot bring salvation into the picture until Matt.

<Bill>
Justification was not accomplished at the cross. Justification has always been on the basis of faith. Christ did not "fulfill the law" to justify anyone. His *blood* was shed to make propitiation.

<JD>
>>One can, however, bring rightousness into the picture as it was an essentioal part of a mans life toward God. Those that were found rightous by God were responsible with what God have given them from there animals to their nation. They did not seek to glorify self, but rather wanted only what God wanted. (responsibility)

<Bill>
Read Heb 11. It is *faith* that pleases God and is the basis of justification - OT and NT.

<JD>
>>Responsibility toward the law which God had given them was the salvation of the OT, not the crusifiction. Today salvation is through Christ and our responsiblity is to Him, not the law which Christ fulfilled.

<Bill>
The difference between then and now is this:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

That is, with the arrival of the gospel, all can be justified by believing that God raised Christ from the dead:

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Abraham was justified by faith, precisely as are people today.

Shalom,

Bill Ross

[jpd]

People of the old testament had a belief and faith in God. The Jews of the New testament also had this belief and faith, yet many rejected Jesus as this savior. Faith in God does not translate to a faith in Jesus as one’s savior.

[Bill Ross]

<JD>
>>People of the old testament had a belief and faith in God. The Jews of the New testament also had this belief and faith, yet many rejected Jesus as this savior. Faith in God does not translate to a faith in Jesus as one’s savior.

<Bill>
God is the one who justifies:

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

Justifying faith is faith in God, who raises the dead:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In the current day, justifying faith is specifically related to the gospel:

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

But in the past, God freely forgave sin on the basis of faith in God's promises in many different scenarios:

Heb 11:
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. {moved…: or, being wary}
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Etc.

Christ does not justify directly, but rather made propitiation that God might be justified to freely forgive - on the basis of faith.

Shalom,

Bill Ross

[disciple]

Originally posted by Alan Stevens
Therefore Abraham believing in the promise is not another way to salvation. The Gospel was part of the promise given to Abraham. Gal 3

Abraham only understood the promise, but God accounted it to him as righteousness , as the promise included the Gospel.

Who are Abraham's seed, we who are Christians are, for we are inheritors of the promise.

So the promise included Christ, it had to, the only way of salvation is through Christs death.

great job alan! i think this is the best post yet on this subject (which has been the subject of several threads). salvation is and always has been by faith in the promise of the God of Adam and the promise of God has always (since Adam as recorded in Gen 3:15) included the seed. they may not have understood it fully (in fact they probably didn't understand a whole lot) but they had faith in the promise of God (and in God) and this was credited, counted, considered, reckoned, imputed, etc. as righteousness. while we have nothing to offer to God and no personal righteousness whatsover to make us acceptable to a holy God, He considers and has always considered faith in His promise as righteousness which is then credited to our account (logizomai - accounting term for credit or deposit). and this righteousness is not a personal righteousness or something we use as a bargaining chip for God to give us a ticket to heaven but is a righteousness which comes from (ek) God:

Phil 3:8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith', 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

may we all experience and possess this righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith in His promise, which includes and has always included (NT and OT) the seed, who we now know is Jesus Christ, the Messiah and Son of God.

[Judge_Dred]

I loved what I read from bill and dicsiple. I am currently doing my homework here and will post shortly.

I truely loved the responses and read each and every passage you listed.

I will say briefly though that it is by faith like you said the OT saints were justified, but they still did not have salvation. God counted it rightousness towards them that believed and were faithful to His commands. Granted sins were forgiven, but how? It was by the law which God had given them. Their faith (responsibility) was crucial here because it was through their faith that they in turn obeyd the law and were justified to God.

I look forward to the next post. I love this site.

[Bill Ross]

<JD>
>>I will say briefly though that it is by faith like you said the OT saints were justified, but they still did not have salvation.

<Bill>
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, JD. What, in your view, is "salvation?"

<JD>
>>God counted it rightousness towards them that believed and were faithful to His commands. Granted sins were forgiven, but how?

<Bill>
God forgives sin freely. It is a gracious, not an act of justice. God, at the time, had not yet provided a propitiation, so he had not yet been justified in doing so. But he did, in the fulness of time, set forth a public propitiation so that he might justifed for his forbearance:

Romans 3:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; {set forth: or, foreordained} {remission: or, passing over}
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he [God] might be just[ified], and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

<JD>
It was by the law which God had given them. Their faith (responsibility) was crucial here because it was through their faith that they in turn obeyd the law and were justified to God.

<Bill>
Paul said that the law itself is not a "faith design":

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Accordig to Paul, the law brings a curse:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But the paradigm for faith is found in Abraham:

Galatians 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. {so many: or, so great}
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. {accounted: or, imputed}
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

So Paul argues strongly that law/works is incompatible with faith apart from works:

Galatians 3:
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Paul was despised by the primitive christians because of this antinomian position.

So Paul seems to say that all of the blessing and promises of God come straight through a single "pipe" and that "pipe" is our faith.

Bill Ross

[Brock]

[may we all experience and possess this righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith in His promise, which includes and has always included (NT and OT) the seed, who we now know is Jesus Christ, the Messiah and Son of God. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry it's been awhile since I've responded to your answeres. That is how the OT believers were saved.

First let me deal with faith. I believe the OT faith is different from the NT faith. Several have refered to Hebrew 11 as the tie between OT and NT faith. Hebrew 11 description of OT faith in every case starts with "God said to...." and the ones He spoke to 1) accepted what He said 2) believed God was real 3) took action based upon what God said.

I think Paul used these OT examples of faith on WHAT God "said" for NT faith which is solely on WHO Jesus "is" not WHAT He said or did.

Second, righteousness, just as JD said, = responsiblity. When God spoke, they accepted responsibility for Gods word or direction and became responsible to Him for all their actions and thoughts. In NT, we become responsible to Him through or based upon faith in WHO it is revealed to us He is. In the OT we have faith in WHAT, in the NT faith in WHO.