Post-trib wellcome here?

[ELI]

Hello God bless.

My name is Jackie and I'm new to this board?

I'm what you might call a "post" triber. These words are kind of new to me?

In other words, I believe we stay where we are planted and Harpazo at Parusia, right were we stand. The Kingdom comes.

No flying~ away...... . . .. LOL


The following is from the Companion Bible I like to use.

Appendixes 140 companion Bible:
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1. THE PARABLE OF THE SOWER (Matt. 13:3-32).


This, the first parable, covers the whole ground.

The "seed "was" the word of (or concerning) the Kingdom".

When repeated later (Luke 8:5-15), the sphere is extended and widened, and is less local and exclusive.

This is by way of application.

The FIRST Sowing was "by" the wayside.

This must have been the proclamation by John the Baptist (Matt. 3. Mark 1:1-8. Luke 3:1-18. John 1:6-36).

This was "by the wayside", and the opposition of the evil one is shown in the birds of evil omen (as in the case of the mustard tree, vv. 31, 32).

Hence the seed was "devoured" and the word was "not understood" (vv. 4, 19).


The SECOND Sowing was by Christ Himself (Matt. 4:17), and Twelve (Matt. 10:7), and the Seventy (Luke 10:1-20).

This sowing was on the stony ground, and was received "with joy" (Matt. 13:20; see Mark 6:20, and 12:37. Luke 4:22). This was unfruitful (Mark 4:16, 17).


The THIRD Sowing was by Peter and the Twelve, and "by them that heard Him" (the Son, Heb. 2:3) during the Dispensation of the Acts.

It was "among the thorns".

Peter proclaimed the Kingdom (Acts 3:18-26), and repeated the call to national repentance, which was the one abiding condition of national blessing.

But the seed was choked. The "thousand of jews" who at first "received the word", continued "all zealous of the law" (Acts 21:20. Gal. 3:1-5, 10-13; 4:9; 5:1-4).

This sowing came to a crisis in Acts 28, when the Kingdom was rejected, and has since been in abeyance. See Ap. 112, 113, and 114.


The FOURTH Sowing is in the future.

It will be the final proclamation of "the Gospel of the Kingdom", immediately preceding and during the Tribulation (Matt. 24:14).

Blindness has "happened to Israel", but it is only "in part" (Rom. 11:25). The "how long" of Isa. 6:11 will ere long be seen.

This sowing will be of short duration only, as were the other three, and numbered by "days" (Dan. 12:13. Matt. 24:22. Luke 17:26).

There will be a special manifestation of the presence and power of the Lord (Matt. 28:20), at the end (sunteleia) of this age; and when this sowing is over, the end (telos) will come (Matt. 24:13, 14), concerning which the disciples had enquired in v. 3.
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The Remnant that takes part in the Fourth Sowing during the great tribulation is the very last Remnant of the Father.

His very elect

Sure would like to “pull” that duty LOL

That’s what we should be praying for, not running flying~ away.


Have a great day regardless
Peace & God bless


Jackie

[countrymouse]

Welcome, Jackie!

I think you'll find more than one flavor in eschatological views here. You'll also find some folks who will politely (usually!) challenge yours. Jump in and have fun!

cm

[Agape Zoe]

What you have here is a very interesting interpretation of the parable of the sower and the seed, that, unfortunately, has gone very a -rye. (My attempt at humor - get it?)

The various views on the tribulation and rapture (prederism, pre-, mid- and post-tribulation; with much divergence within those categories) are subject to tremendous debate and lengthy research. (I’ll try to keep it brief, though.)

Dispensationalism

Dispensationalism teaches that earth’s history is divided into ages, as is God’s methods with dealing with man. Clearly, God’s main methods for dealing with man throughout most of the Bible centered around Israel. Not only did God spread His message through Israel to other nations, but He used other nations to solidify is message in the hearts and minds of the Israelites through trials and tribulation. It was the age of law.

Then came Christ, riding into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey the very day it was prophesied in the Old Testament. He was heralded as the “mashiech nagid shaloam,” the “Messiah, Prince of Peace.” However, though the people of Israel accepted Christ, Israel as a nation rejected Him. On that prophetic day, He proclaimed the destruction of the temple and of Israel, until the “fullness of the Gentiles come.” (Romans 11:25)

Are you familiar with the old chess-clocks? For those talented at chess, both players had his own clock to time his moves. The two clocks were attached, and one clock stopped while the other ticked away. This interchange occurred until the end of the game.

Much like the chess-clock, Israel’s time to fulfill God’s purposes had been temporarily suspended. The play is now turned over to God’s new vehicle, the Church Body. The connection of the two vehicles is Christ, grafting the members of the church into the nation of Israel.

A Key

Both the people of Israel and Christians are referred to as “elect” and “saints,” because the true Sons of the Father share one thing in common -Christ.

What About the Tribulation?

Now that I’ve taken the scenic route around the issue, it’s time for me to reach a conclusion. Think again to the chess clock - only one is allowed to be going at a time. The tribulation is classified as the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble,” “Daniel’s 70th Week,” etc., all Jewish terms. As if that were not enough, there are scores of unfulfilled promises speaking directly of Israel.

Now the “church” is mentioned 7 times in the book of Revelation, all before chapter 4. All other references of the church are arguably non-existent - yet Israel seems to be a large focus. (In fact, chapter 12 highlights Israel as the one fleeing the beast during the tribulation.)

I hope this wasn’t to confusing. I tend to make broad statements and generate more questions for every answer I give. In short, the church is prominent only until the “fullness of the Gentiles.” At that point, the church disappears in prophesy and does not reappear until after the tribulation. During the tribulation, Israel’s time to shine has arrived once again.

[rainbow promise]

Hi Jackie, I am fairly new here myself. I believe in post-trib as well. I will say however that I still see differently than you concerning the Lord's return. But that is okay, it will give us something to chat about........

I will be back to this one later when I have the time.......
take care and God bless...Sandi

[hoonbaba]

Hi rainbow promise =)

Agape Zoe mentioned one of the 4 major interpretations of end times bible prophecy. The other schools of thought are the historicist, idealists, and the preterist interpretations.

The historicist view teaches that end times prophecy is slowly being fulfilled thoughout history (I think I might be a bit off). But in the end Christ will come again.

The idealist view teaches that Revelation applies for all believers as spiritual encouragement/truth (I get some feeling I'm missing something). This school of thought also teaches that Jesus will come again once the appointed time comes.

The preterist view, however, teaches that all (or most) end times prophecy was fulfilled in the first century. Sounds ludicrious right? But I believe it!! LOL =P Actually a bunch of us believe it too =P

The preterist view is generally looked at as the 'heretical/unorthodox' view of the end times. So Christians, who're eagerly awaiting His coming, generally just shun away from it. But if you'd like to know more about it, we'll share about it =)

God bless!

-Jason

[rainbow promise]

I never did get a grasp on the catagories you mentioned hoonbaba.

I do believe that Jesus will come and we will go to meet him in the air.

I believe that the words of REv. are encouragement for believers,

I believe that the prophecies are and have happened thru history and can be proven thru historical records.

I don't however take the Preterist view.

God bless and nighty night.....Sandi

[hoonbaba]

Originally posted by rainbow promise
I never did get a grasp on the catagories you mentioned hoonbaba.

I do believe that Jesus will come and we will go to meet him in the air.

I believe that the words of REv. are encouragement for believers,

I believe that the prophecies are and have happened thru history and can be proven thru historical records.

I don't however take the Preterist view.

God bless and nighty night.....Sandi

Hi Sandi,

I think I didn't explain them right.

Anyway I'll just cut and paste the four major views from this site:

The Historical/Critical school believes that prophecies such as Daniel are not really prophecy, having been written at a time later than stated in the text, and were designed to act as encouragement to Israel rather than being true prophecy.

The Dispensationalist/Futurist school believes that God has operated under different rules in different "dispensations". The prophecies are to be interpreted exactly as written, without any transformation from physical Israel to spiritual Israel. They also believe that the seventieth week of Dan 9:24 has not happened, and will be in the future. This leads to predictions such as the restitution of literal Israel, with mass conversion of Jews, an antichrist who forms a one-world government, peace treaties with the Jews, and a physical battle of Armageddon.

The Preterist school believes that all prophecy has been fulfilled. The book of Revelation was written about AD60, rather than AD94 as many believe. Jesus came the second time in AD70 at the destruction of Jerusalem, which was the "midst" of the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27. This coming was a spiritual rather than a physical event. In order to allow this interpretation, they maintain that the entire NT after the gospels is to be interpreted spiritually rather than physically.

The Historicist school believes that prophecy has been in large measure fulfilled, but that the second coming and events surrounding it have not yet happened. The physical promises to physical Israel became spiritual promises to spiritual Israel when the Jews rejected Christ. Rather than declare a priori that all texts should be read physically or that all texts should be read spiritually, historicists believe that the natural reading of texts should have the greatest weight, but that such a reading needs to take into account the linguistic and cultic elements of the day of the writer, as well as the conditionality of prophecy enunciated in Jer 18:5-10.

Anyway, I also do believe that Revelation is an encouragement to us, Christ will come again, though not for the sake of establishing His coming, or any of the other 'last things' (Revelation 1:8).

God bless!

-Jason

[Alan Stevens]

Hi

Hoping not to confuse matters!!

I am from the partial pretist/ idealist view. (which mainly believes that the book of revelation was partlly fulfilled in the first century, but the book also contains images and descriptions that are not to be taken literally) It would look at the book of revelation covering the whole of the period from pentecost to the return, which is still to happen.
Virtually all idealists (those that i have read and spoken to) are Amillennial, what is Amillennial i hear you ask, well here's a small description.



"Amillennialism

The word millennium is a Latin term meaning one thousand years. It's from the root words [mille], meaning thousand, and [annum], meaning years. In Greek (yes Greek, not Latin), placing the letter "a" before a word negates the word. So a-millennial literally means no millennial.

However, we should note that this word is a misnomer in describing Reformed Amillennialists, because they do in fact believe there is a millennial reign of Christ, but not on an earthly throne upon this sin cursed world. They believe Messiah reigns upon the throne in the Kingdom of heaven. So the word Amillennial itself is literally accurate only as it is understood to mean no millennial reign 'on an earthly or worldly throne.'

This view of eschatology holds that the reign of Christ (Revelation 20:4), began as the apostle Peter declared (Acts 2:30-32), when Christ instituted this kingdom by His death, resurrection, and ascension to the throne of David. Reformed Amillennialism teaches that the kingdom of God is both real, effectual, substantive, and spiritual, and is now being extended and advanced by the preaching of the gospel. "


There are many views and ideas, i suppose at the end of the day each of us has to come to our own conclusion as to what we can live with.
It does not effect our salvation but can effect our perspective on the world.

I hope this helps

Cheers
[COLOR=blue][COLOR=blue][COLOR=blue][FONT=times new roman]

[hoonbaba]

Hi Alan,

Is it possible for an idealist to be posmillennial? Just curious =)

-Jason

[Alan Stevens]

Hi Jason

The answer to that is yes, and i suppose premillennial as well.

The Millennial postion that is held is often associated with a 'position' i.e

Historical = Postmil
Idealist - Amil
Futurist - Premil
Preteist - Past mil

But this is not always the case. An Idealist can be Post (this is very unlikely as Idealist do not usually reckon on a future 'golden' age) or more commonly Premil (but this would mean a literal interpretation of Revelation 20, which would be in conflict with the idealist approach). So most are Amill, which considers an actual or realised space of time, between 2 events, with revelation being a 'picture' of what is and will happen.

To complicate matters even more, some Amill are not idealists !! some are Historical looking at events in Revelation as occuring in a set pattern in the 'realised' now.

I hope that is not too confusing.

All the best

alan

[Agape Zoe]

To the Prederists
I would like to ask for correspondence researching and overlaying Revelation to history to be sent to this address. I enjoy legitimate research, and have not seen convincing arguments proving that Revelation has been fulfilled in history. Please include historical dates and names as much as possible. I never assume that my view of scripture is absolute, and I keep my mind open to differing views, as long as a convincing case is made in scripture. I feel like this is what Paul meant with his commendation of the Bereans in the book of Acts.

Revelation Not Important?
That aside, I would like to say that I could not disagree more strongly with the premise that any of scripture is not to be understood - which is the premise that I inferred from some of the posts. I have heard many say that Revelation is too apocalyptic to be understood, and is not important enough for a concise study. Apart from the doctrine of salvation, no other topic is given the time or focus in the Bible than prophesy! Revelation 1:3 says, "Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand." Revelation is the only book of the Bible that says, "Read me, I'm special."

Daniel the False Prophet?
Hoonbaba, I know you where just coping info from another site. But whoever says that Daniel was not a prophet and/or his book was written later historically then stated does not know their history! In 270BC, Alexander the Great had already conquered most of the world. Hellenization (the implementation of Greek culture and language) had already gripped Israel. At this time in history, very few Hebrews spoke Hebrew! The need for the Old Testament cannon to be translated into Greek was meet by seventy Hebrew scholars. The Greek version of the Old Testament was called the Septuagint, and included the book of Daniel as it is found in the Hebrew Masoretic Text. Of course, apart from historical evidences, Jesus called Daniel a prophet, and quoted his materials (Matthew 24:15).

I don't mean to sound harsh in this post. I would like genuine correspondence on the issue. Keep in mind, though, that the natural man cannot understand the supernatural. Only the Author of scripture is able to interpret what is written in the Bible, and no study is worth the time without bathing it in prayer. God bless!

[Alan Stevens]

Hi

Hello Zoe,

From an Amillenial/Idealist position the following article by Anthony A. Hoekema might help explain:

"The Interpretation of the Book of Revelation

To see the background for the amillennial view of the millennium, we should first of all concern ourselves with the question of the interpretation of the book of Revelation. Let us assume, for example, that the book of Revelation is to be interpreted in an exclusively futuristic sense, referring only to events that are to happen around or at the time of Christ’s Second Coming. Let us further assume that what is presented in Revelation 20 must necessarily follow, in chronological order, what was described in chapter 19. We are then virtually compelled to believe that the thousand-year reign depicted in 20:4 must come after the return of Christ described in 19:11. But if we see Revelation 20:1-6 as describing what takes place during the entire history of the church, beginning with the first coming of Christ, we will have an understanding of the millennium of Revelation 20 which is quite different from the one just mentioned. For this reason it will be necessary first to say something about the way in which the book of Revelation should be interpreted.

The system of interpretation of the book of Revelation which seems most satisfactory to me (though it is not without its difficulties) is that known as progressive parallelism, ably defended by William Hendriksen in More Than Conquerors, his commentary on Revelation.2 According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ’s first coming to the time of his second. The first of these seven sections is found in chapters 1-3.

John sees the risen and glorified Christ walking in the midst of seven golden lampstands. In obedience to Christ’s command John now proceeds to write letters to each of the seven churches of Asia Minor. The vision of the glorified Christ together with the letters to the seven churches obviously form a unit. As we read these letters we are impressed with two things.
First, there are references to events, people and places of the time when the book of Revelation was written. Second, the principles, commendations and warnings contained in these letters have value for the church of all time. These two observations, in fact, provide a clue for the interpretation of the entire book. Since the book of Revelation was addressed to the church of the first century A.D., its message had reference to events occurring at that time and was therefore meaningful for the Christians of that day. But since the book was also intended for the church through the ages, its message is still relevant for us today.

The second of these seven sections is the vision of the seven seals found in chapters 4-7. John is caught up to heaven and sees God sitting on his radiant throne. He then sees the Lamb that had been slain taking the scroll sealed with seven seals from the hand of the one who was sitting on the throne. The various seals are broken, and various divine judgments on the world are described. In this vision we see the church suffering trial and persecution against the background of the victory of Christ.

The third section, found in chapters 8-11, describes the seven trumpets of judgment. In this vision we see the church avenged, protected and victorious.

The fourth section, chapters 12-14, begins with the vision of the woman giving birth to a son while the dragon waits to devour him as soon as he is born—an obvious reference to the birth of Christ. The rest of the section describes the continued opposition of the dragon (who stands for Satan) to the church. This section also introduces us to the two beasts who are the dragon’s helpers: the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth.

The fifth section is found in chapters 15-16. It describes the seven bowls of wrath, thus depicting in a very graphic way the final visitation of God’s wrath on those who remain impenitent.

The sixth section, chapters 17-19, describes the fall of Babylon and of the beasts. Babylon stands for the worldly city — the forces of secularism and godlessness which are in opposition to the kingdom of God. The end of chapter 19 depicts the fall and final punishment of the dragon’s two helpers: the beast out of the sea, and the false prophet, who appears to be identified with the beast out of the earth (see 16:13).

The seventh section, chapters 20-22, narrates the doom of the dragon, thus completing the description of the overthrow of the enemies of Christ. In addition, it describes the final judgment, the final triumph of Christ and his church, and the renewed universe, here called the new heaven and the new earth.
Note that though these seven sections are parallel to each other, they also reveal a certain amount of eschatological progress. The last section, for example, takes us further into the future than the other sections. Although the final judgment has already been announced in 1:7 and has been briefly described in 6:12-17, it is not set forth in full detail until we come to 20:11-15. Though the final joy of the redeemed in the life to come has been hinted at in 7:15-17, it is not until we reach chapter 21 that we find a detailed and elaborate description of the blessedness of life on the new earth (21:1-22:5). Hence this method of interpretation is called progressive parallelism.

There is eschatological progression in these seven sections, not only regarding the individual sections but also regarding the book as a whole. If we grant that the book of Revelation depicts the struggle between Christ and his church on the one hand and the enemies of Christ and the church on the other, we may say that the first half of the book (chapters 1-11) describes the struggle on earth, picturing the church as it is persecuted by the world. The second half of the book, however (chapters 12-22), gives us the deeper spiritual background of this struggle, describing the persecution of the church by the dragon (Satan) and his helpers. In the light of this analysis we see how the last section of the book (chapters 20-22) falls into place. This last section describes the judgment which falls on Satan, and his final doom. Since Satan is the supreme opponent of Christ, it stands to reason that his doom should be narrated last. "

I hope that helps, I certainly give a lot of importance to the Book of Revelatio, but i do not Interperate it in a 'timeline' futuristic way. But see it as a picture to the whole of the Churchs life. It is very important in understanding how the Church is in the world.

I hope that is Ok. as i say, it is the system that seems to 'fit' best with me.

Cheers

alan